From jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com Wed Mar 4 17:22:23 2009
From: jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Hello Think Tank! from Amsterdam Noord
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:22:21 -0800
Message-ID: <998260.400.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
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beer and pizza
get some tools
find a corner
and invite folks into <=
BR>eat the pizza you make
they bring the beer and their bikes
to work=
on
do it once a week
and before you know it
--- On Tue, 3/3/09=
, Wendy Monroe <wendy.monroe(a)usermail.com=
> wrote:
> From: Wendy Monroe <wen=
dy.monroe(a)usermail.com>
> Subject: [TheThinkTank] Hello Think =
Tank! from Amsterdam Noord
> To: "The Think Tank" <thethinktank(a)bikecollectives.org>
=
> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 2:58 AM
> Thanks to Jason Moore,I> have been enjoying y'all's
> postings..=C2=A0I worked at the Miss=
ing Link
Bike
> Collective in Berkeley, CA =C2=A0for 12 years (1978-90) and
=
> am now here in Amsterdam, Netherlands.. trying to put a
> communit=
y bike program together.
> Here there is plenty of public money to spen=
d...
> but =C2=A0no one here has apparently ever heard of a
> pub=
lic bike program.. in the entire database of the Dutch
> Bicycle Policy=
Organization=C2=A0(Fietsberaad)
> =C2=A0there is ONE mention of an Ear=
n-a-bike program.
> =C2=A0I am busy right now, writing a proposal for a=
new
> program in Amsterdam Noord... to get funding to start it,
>=
; and to house it in. =C2=A0I'll let you all know if the
> program is a=
Go, as they say... and if any of you come to
> the Netherlands, I invi=
te you to please drop in.
> I was just laughing over this Dutch bike> activist poster image I found in the current issue of Op
> Eigen =
Kracht ( Under your own Power) magazine:
>
> Kind of
darling, isn't it? =C2=A0I had to
> reach for the bilingual dictionary=
on this one.. it appears
> to be an anti-car message.
> It means=
in Dutch: =C2=A0'Suffocate in Your
> Can!' =C2=A0
> ( in your ca=
r, get it?) =C2=A0Not what you would
> expect from the cute drawing of =
the little girl!
> Anyway, I just thought I would say '
> Hello!'=
> Sincerely,
> Wendy Monroe
>
> Op Mar 3, 2009, om =
11:25 AM heeft Jason Moore het
> volgende geschreven:
> Check out=
the Lose the
> Training Wheels program. They are experts at this type<=
BR>> of thing.
>
> Also an interesting new product is coming =
out soon: The Gyrobike
>
> My recommended method for teach=
ing people to ride bicycles
> is this:
>
> 1. Remove the p=
edals of the bike and lower the seat such
> that the rider's feet can e=
asily touch the ground, this
> way the rider can scoot
around and get the feeling of the
> bicycle's dynamics. If you use tra=
ining wheels or
> support the rider with your hand it doesn't allow the=
> person to feel how the bicycle actually handles.
> 2. On=
ce the rider is comfortable on the scooter, add the
> pedals so they ca=
n try self propulsion.
>
> People learn very fast with this meth=
od.
>
> Jason Moore
> http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~biosport/jkm/
&=
gt; moorebicycles
> Bicycle
> Dynamics
> Lab,
>=
TU Delft
> Sports
> Biomechanics
> Lab,
> UC D=
avis
> Bike
> Church Minister, Davis, CA
> Netherland=
s office phone # : +31 15 278 6932
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:=
16 PM,
> josh brown <josh(a)communitycycles.=
org>
> wrote:
> Howdy all.
>
>
>=
I'm wondering how/if any of you have worked with
> populations or indi=
viduals with disabilities who come into
> your shops or who approach yo=
ur organization for help.
> We've had this type of thing happen before,=
where
> someone who has experienced head trauma, or has severe
>=
balance issues is looking for an adult tricycle, but we
> never seem t=
o have any quality ones in the shop when
> they're needed, and inexpens=
ive but decent ones are in
> the 6-8 hundred dollar range.
>&nbs=
p;
> I received the below email this morning, and while i
> welc=
ome the challenge and experience of getting a 10 year
> old with CP and=
Autism on a bicycle, i'm a little
> overwhelmed at the prospect.
&=
gt;
> What kinds of experiences have you all
had? I know Boulder
> and Colorado both have some excellent non-profit=
s that deal
> with folks with disabilities, and I'll start making
&g=
t; phone calls to them, to see what types of things to be aware
> of. I=
'm interested in your experiences as community bike
> shop staff.
&=
gt;
> If anyone reading this has some type of circumstance which=
> requires some sort of modification to their own bike to
> acco=
mmodate balance, reflex, or a body that's different
> than most of us h=
ave (ie, amputee, etc) issues, PLEASE get
> in touch. I'm interested bo=
th in your experiences
> personally as well as resources you've found t=
o be
> helpful or not so helpful.
>
> I've personal=
ly worked with folks with all kinds of
> issues, just not in my work wi=
th bicycles...looking forward
> to bringing those two worlds together..=
.
>
> thanks!
>
>
josh.
> community cycles.
>
>
> Hello,=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We have been
> looking into your program for our son=
but I have a couple of
> questions. =C2=A0 Our son has Cerebral
>=
; Palsy and Autism, both are mild, however he has difficulty
> in ridin=
g a two wheel bike as he has balance problems.=C2=A0
> He is 10 yrs old=
, (11 in June) and has out grown bikes that
> we can place "training wh=
eels" on.=C2=A0 We know
> that there are stabilization wheels but not s=
ure how to go
> about working with them on multiple speed bikes.
>=
; =C2=A0 Do you work with children with
> disabilities? and Would you b=
e able to help us in getting a
> bicycle that would meet his needs? =C2=
=A0
> He would dearly love to be able to ride a bike and we
> are=
most happy to work with him and get him the proper set
> up.=C2=A0 Any=
help or information would be greatly
> appreciated.=C2=A0 You are welc=
ome to call
us at our home
> phone or email.=C2=A0 Your program sounds very exciti=
ng and
> we look forward to hearing from you. =C2=A0
> Thank you,=
Sue and Paul
>
>
>
> ________________=
_______________________________
> Thethinktank mailing list
&g=
t; Thethinktank(a)bikecollecti=
ves.org
> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave(a)bikecollectives.=
org
> To manage your subscription, plase visit:
> =
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi=
/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> Thethinktank mailing=
list
> Thethinktank(a)bikec=
ollectives.org
> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> TheThinkTank-leave(a)bikecol=
lectives.org
> To manage your subscription, plase visit:
> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/th=
ethinktank-bikecollectives.org
>
>
> -----Inline Atta=
chment Follows-----
>
> ________________________________________=
_______
> Thethinktank mailing list
> Thethinktank(a)=
bikecollectives.org
> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave(a)bikecollec=
tives.org
> To manage your subscription, plase visit:
> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/theth=
inktank-bikecollectives.org
>
=20
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From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Wed Mar 4 22:27:51 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 07:27:47 +0100
Message-ID: <82CB4210-4E03-4F0B-A982-ADEB2094D7C6@usermail.com>
In-Reply-To: <998260.400.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
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Op Mar 5, 2009, om 2:22 AM heeft jamesbleds0e(a)yahoo.com het volgende
geschreven:
>
> beer and pizza...get some tools..find a corner...and invite folks
> into...eat the pizza you make ...they bring the beer and their
> bikes..to work on..do it once a week...and before you know it
Thanks James, Totally, That's how I would do it if I were still
living in Berkeley... the situation in Holland is like a bizarro
parallel universe, however... they have Money here!
HOwever, the people I hope to attract to the program are likely to be
Muslim, and could be offended if I offer them beer.
Here is the situation:
The City of Amsterdam wants me to write a wish list for the community
bike center, and is apparently willing to fund it with thousands of
euros. They are a little annoyed that I haven't presented them with a
budget yet.. but I am taking the time to craft a program that will
likely be a winner, so other similar programs will be requested by
other cities across Holland....
If this happens, I hope you Think Tankers will consider coming to
Holland to check out the situation... some of you will be needed
here. (Jason? Hello?)
The Neighborhood Think Tank is asking me.. 'What activities do you
want to do?' and 'What groups in the community do you propose to serve?'
I want to make good use of any resources I get,... American-style
Community bike programs in Holland are completely unknown, and
successful programs to get immigrants on bikes here are very likely to
be funded, as there is a lot of money riding on this issue in Holland.
The Dutch government spends €60 million a year STUDYING THE PROBLEM as
to why the Moroccan immigrants here prefer to ride public
transportation over riding bikes.
Please Help me out, guys.. these are the programs I have proposed so
far:
Earn-a-bike
Bike Library ( free short-term loan of cargo trikes )
Recreational bike rides arranged for immigrant mothers and kids, in
which everyone gets to keep their bikes afterwards.
Does anyone have a suggestion for additional programs? ( am I missing
any obvious ones, in other words?)
Thank you!
Wendy Monroe
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From soa@ri.cmu.edu Wed Mar 4 22:41:57 2009
From: Stuart O Anderson
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 01:41:56 -0500
Message-ID: <7ed3bc8b0903042241l73909029xab843540bb121ed@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <82CB4210-4E03-4F0B-A982-ADEB2094D7C6@usermail.com>
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Would be interested to know what those studies have to say - perhaps that's
a source of more ideas.
- Could try structured classes, possibly in conjunction with rides, covering
basic maintenance and ride safety.
- Depending on funding, youth employment in the shop
Stuart
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From rigelc@gmail.com Wed Mar 4 22:54:05 2009
From: Rigel Christian
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:54:03 -0800
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <7ed3bc8b0903042241l73909029xab843540bb121ed@mail.gmail.com>
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i, too, would like to know more. particularly about second and third
generation immigrants and the distribution of basic riding skills
within those subsets of the target population.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Stuart O Anderson wrote:
> Would be interested to know what those studies have to say - perhaps that's
> a source of more ideas.
>
> - Could try structured classes, possibly in conjunction with rides, covering
> basic maintenance and ride safety.
> - Depending on funding, youth employment in the shop
>
> Stuart
>
> _______________________________________________
> Thethinktank mailing list
> Thethinktank(a)bikecollectives.org
> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave(a)bikecollectives.=
org
> To manage your subscription, plase visit:
> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.=
org
>
>
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From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Wed Mar 4 23:18:47 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] the Fiets Beraad Kennisbank is a Dutch analogue to the
Think Tank
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:18:44 +0100
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <7ed3bc8b0903042241l73909029xab843540bb121ed@mail.gmail.com>
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Yes. I should have mentioned that. ( the studies)
The official Dutch studies are written by an organization called the =20
FietsBeraad. ( literally, the 'Bicycle Advisory')
Anyone interested can check out their website and studies at their =20
KennisBank: http://www.fietsberaad.nl/index.cfm?section=3DKennisbank
If you load the pages into Google Translate, you can read their Dutch-=20
language publications.
I hope y'all find these interesting...
One caveat for interested ThinkTankers... the Dutch do speak English, =20
but they insist that you learn to speak their language if you want to =20
be taken seriously here.
I was told by an English-speaking head of the local Bike Lessons =20
department of Amsterdam Noord, that next year when my Dutch is good =20
enough, I might be allowed to attend the
National Bike Lesson Professor's School.
(Yes, it exists here.)
This is the paradox, of finding a way to teach immigrants to ride =20
bicycles....TOO efficiently:
If all the immigrant Moroccans get on Gyrobikes and learn to ride in =20
half an hour, what will the Bike Professors do with themselves?
Op Mar 5, 2009, om 7:41 AM heeft Stuart O Anderson het volgende =20
geschreven:
> Would be interested to know what those studies have to say - perhaps =20
> that's a source of more ideas.
>
> - Could try structured classes, possibly in conjunction with rides, =20
> covering basic maintenance and ride safety.
> - Depending on funding, youth employment in the shop
>
> Stuart
> _______________________________________________
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From librarybike@hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:20:51 2009
From: Bill Wright
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:20:50 -0800
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <82CB4210-4E03-4F0B-A982-ADEB2094D7C6@usermail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A bike library - one that loans out bikes for everyone - serves the whole str=
atus off the population. Cargo bikes and commute bikes and other bikes. Thi=
s works well for us a LibraryBikes.org in Arcata, California.
A bike library also provides the current bikers a chance to try other types o=
f equipment without need to purchase. Cargo bikes for one, trailers are good=
to, and road bike and fixed gear equipment are in high demand too.
Your bike library can have tools workstands available too. Reuse and recycl=
ing of donated bikes are the best and highest use of old equipment also, and =
skills of everyone involved improve. Check out our how to book at www.Librar=
yBikes.org=20
i hope you get your wishes,
Good luck.
Bill
From: wendy.monroe(a)usermail.com
To: jamesbleds0e(a)yahoo.com; thethinktank(a)bikecollectives.org
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:27:47 +0100
Subject: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Op Mar 5, 2009, om 2:22 AM heeft jamesbleds0e(a)yahoo.com het volgende geschr=
even:
beer and pizza...get some tools..find a corner...and invite folks into...eat =
the pizza you make ...they bring the beer and their bikes..to work on..do it =
once a week...and before you know it=20
Thanks James, Totally, That's how I would do it if I were still living in B=
erkeley... the situation in Holland is like a bizarro parallel universe, howe=
ver... they have Money here!HOwever, the people I hope to attract to the prog=
ram are likely to be Muslim, and could be offended if I offer them beer.
Here is the situation:The City of Amsterdam wants me to write a wish list for=
the community bike center, and is apparently willing to fund it with thousan=
ds of euros. They are a little annoyed that I haven't presented them with a =
budget yet.. but I am taking the time to craft a program that will likely be=
a winner, so other similar programs will be requested by other cities across=
Holland....
If this happens, I hope you Think Tankers will consider coming to Holland to =
check out the situation... some of you will be needed here. (Jason? Hello?)
The Neighborhood Think Tank is asking me.. 'What activities do you want to do=
?' and 'What groups in the community do you propose to serve?'
I want to make good use of any resources I get,... American-style Community b=
ike programs in Holland are completely unknown, and successful programs to ge=
t immigrants on bikes here are very likely to be funded, as there is a lot of=
money riding on this issue in Holland.
The Dutch government spends =E2=82=AC60 million a year STUDYING THE PROBLEM a=
s to why the Moroccan immigrants here prefer to ride public transportation ov=
er riding bikes.
Please Help me out, guys.. these are the programs I have proposed so far:
Earn-a-bikeBike Library ( free short-term loan of cargo trikes )Recreational =
bike rides arranged for immigrant mothers and kids, in which everyone gets to=
keep their bikes afterwards.
Does anyone have a suggestion for additional programs? ( am I missing any ob=
vious ones, in other words?)
Thank you!
Wendy Monroe
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=E2=84=A2 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups =
to meet.
http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
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From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Thu Mar 5 21:40:05 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:39:58 +0100
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To:
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HI Bill,
I read the book about the Arcata Library Bike program... bought it =20
electronically off LuLu in January. Found it inspiring, actually.
In our case, we would be lending out three wheeled cargo trikes ...a =20
day at a time, I am thinking, rather than for weeks or months. I'm a =20
little worried about them being stolen or driven into a canal.
I'm thinking that, since the potential borrowers would not have credit =20
cards ( they are almost unknown in Holland, except for fairly rich =20
folks) The only way to ensure the return of the bikes
without asking for a hefty cash deposit, would be to hang on to =20
borrowers' passports or national ID cards. Not very friendly... but =20
I'm not sure what else to do...
Lending Trailers... that is also a good idea! Occasionally you see =20
people pulling them with their bikes.
One thing that you NEVER see in Amsterdam.... is an XtraCycle. It =20
appears to be a cultural imperative here for people to always carry =20
loads in front of them. Maybe to prevent theft?
I would like to have a bike with a Free Radical on it to lend, so =20
locals can try actually riding one... they certainly are a much less =20
expensive ( and lighter!) cargo-carrying solution than a Bakfiets.
Road bikes... Around here, those appear to be primarily carbon-fiber =20
midlife crisis bikes for older men in Spandex. Steel racing bikes are =20
'for English-speaking people,' I have been told at various bike =20
shops. (???)
And... probably most bikes one sees here are one-speed with coaster =20
brakes. I hope to fix up as many donated older ones as possible and =20
give them to people who don't have bikes yet.
Yes, I was also thinking of having tools available for a walk-in DIY =20
repair show ( with advice)
And.. yes,, I love the Repair Manifesto too! I want to have a copy of =20
posted on the wall of the Repair area.
( Platform 21 is an artists' space here in Amsterdam.)
thanks so much, everyone!
Wendy
Op Mar 6, 2009, om 2:20 AM heeft Bill Wright het volgende geschreven:
> A bike library - one that loans out bikes for everyone - serves the =20
> whole stratus off the population. Cargo bikes and commute bikes and =20
> other bikes. This works well for us a LibraryBikes.org in Arcata, =20
> California.
>
> A bike library also provides the current bikers a chance to try =20
> other types of equipment without need to purchase. Cargo bikes for =20
> one, trailers are good to, and road bike and fixed gear equipment =20
> are in high demand too.
>
> Your bike library can have tools workstands available too. Reuse =20
> and recycling of donated bikes are the best and highest use of old =20
> equipment also, and skills of everyone involved improve. Check out =20
> our how to book at www.LibraryBikes.org
>
> i hope you get your wishes,
> Good luck.
> Bill
>
> From: wendy.monroe(a)usermail.com
> To: jamesbleds0e(a)yahoo.com; thethinktank(a)bikecollectives.org
> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:27:47 +0100
> Subject: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my =20
> proposal?
>
>
> Op Mar 5, 2009, om 2:22 AM heeft jamesbleds0e(a)yahoo.com het volgende =20
> geschreven:
>
> beer and pizza...get some tools..find a corner...and invite folks =20
> into...eat the pizza you make ...they bring the beer and their =20
> bikes..to work on..do it once a week...and before you know it
>
> Thanks James, Totally, That's how I would do it if I were still =20
> living in Berkeley... the situation in Holland is like a bizarro =20
> parallel universe, however... they have Money here!
> HOwever, the people I hope to attract to the program are likely to =20
> be Muslim, and could be offended if I offer them beer.
>
> Here is the situation:
> The City of Amsterdam wants me to write a wish list for the =20
> community bike center, and is apparently willing to fund it with =20
> thousands of euros. They are a little annoyed that I haven't =20
> presented them with a budget yet.. but I am taking the time to =20
> craft a program that will likely be a winner, so other similar =20
> programs will be requested by other cities across Holland....
>
> If this happens, I hope you Think Tankers will consider coming to =20
> Holland to check out the situation... some of you will be needed =20
> here. (Jason? Hello?)
>
> The Neighborhood Think Tank is asking me.. 'What activities do you =20
> want to do?' and 'What groups in the community do you propose to =20
> serve?'
>
> I want to make good use of any resources I get,... American-style =20
> Community bike programs in Holland are completely unknown, and =20
> successful programs to get immigrants on bikes here are very likely =20
> to be funded, as there is a lot of money riding on this issue in =20
> Holland.
>
> The Dutch government spends =E2=82=AC60 million a year STUDYING THE PROBLEM=
=20
> as to why the Moroccan immigrants here prefer to ride public =20
> transportation over riding bikes.
>
> Please Help me out, guys.. these are the programs I have proposed =20
> so far:
>
> Earn-a-bike
> Bike Library ( free short-term loan of cargo trikes )
> Recreational bike rides arranged for immigrant mothers and kids, in =20
> which everyone gets to keep their bikes afterwards.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion for additional programs? ( am I =20
> missing any obvious ones, in other words?)
>
> Thank you!
>
> Wendy Monroe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Windows Live=E2=84=A2 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite group=
s =20
> to meet. Check it out. _______________________________________________
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From cbarreb@gmail.com Mon Mar 9 13:56:56 2009
From: Christine Bourgeois
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Am I missing any great programs from my proposal?
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:56:55 -0700
Message-ID: <24a114f00903091356tc220d8j5c85bb6a7dd8d3f9@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <82CB4210-4E03-4F0B-A982-ADEB2094D7C6@usermail.com>
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Hi Wendy,
Have you read this research?
http://www.difu.de/index.shtml?/publikationen/dfk/en/07_2/07_2_harms.shtml
Also in January 2008, there was a debate in Holland about Muslim women
not allowed to
ride bikes (article in French):
http://mediarabe.info/spip.php?article1232
I think that it has been solved but it's important to keep in mind
that you'll have to deal with
some cultural issues...
Good luck with your great project!
--
Christine Bourgeois
www.bicicentro.org
http://cbarreb.smugmug.com/
--===============6952561921182064019==--
From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Mon Mar 9 21:25:06 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] 'Mobility Poverty'... and cultural sensitivity
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 05:25:00 +0100
Message-ID: <57C45697-D5CD-4EAA-9787-2403AB71AC53@usermail.com>
In-Reply-To: <24a114f00903091356tc220d8j5c85bb6a7dd8d3f9@mail.gmail.com>
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HI Christine,
Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. Would it =20
show cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the immigrant =20
population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle?
One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at the =20
bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling itself. It =20
is more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle together outside =20
their homes.
This research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me:
'Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for =20
many of them an =E2=80=9Cuncanny,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cdangerous,=E2=80=9D and a=
lso =E2=80=9Cweird=E2=80=9D activity =20
predominantly reserved for the ethnic Dutch'
Yup, that would explain a few things...
I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the Dutch =20
government .. tens of millions of euros each year!!... to encourage =20
immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign might be to =20
instead send teams of cyclists to rove around major cities in Holland, =20
handing out 20 euro notes, to each woman seen riding along with a head =20
scarf on...every single day.
I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over in a =20
youth population of Moroccans,... ' where the bicycle has a bad image =20
and little status value..'
Would they even show up for such a program?
I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless it =20
is marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of repairing =20
scooters and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to those of us who =20
came from a California-style bike culture. But it may be the social =20
reality here.
Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, =20
Google Translate!)
"The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com "(29/12/207) =20
is a sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as was the fatwa on" =20
nursing major. "Indeed, the last discovery of a fatwa that forbids =20
Muslim women to practice cycling, because according to the religion =20
that spread, "straddle the saddle of the bicycle engender women as =20
sexual arousal, and the bike becomes this point of view, a prohibited =20
object. "
My first reaction being, ' Oh damn, now Men know our =20
Secret!!' (Just kidding.)
I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will =20
sign off and read the rest of that article...
cheers,
Wendy
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--===============1146877239304139474==--
From fhartha@gmail.com Tue Mar 10 05:12:30 2009
From: Fhar Miess
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] 'Mobility Poverty'... and cultural sensitivity
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:12:22 +0200
Message-ID: <3C9F5E59-AA18-4F87-AFDD-B7B653F62BAA@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <57C45697-D5CD-4EAA-9787-2403AB71AC53@usermail.com>
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Wendy,
This is a very interesting problem, and I don't think it would be =20
culturally insensitive to "try to win the immigrant population of =20
Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle". I'm currently living =20
in Cairo where there is a group of Egyptians who are doing bicycle =20
advocacy. There is nothing particularly evocative of "western =20
hegemony" in it (until they start talking about traffic laws, anyway), =20
although there might be an argument that it is somewhat classist. =20
Also, the truth of the matter is that it seems to be a simple matter =20
of mobility and freedom of movement in a place where they find it =20
difficult to get a drivers license and cycling is more the norm =20
anyway. They likely have more interest in socializing because that's =20
the reason for mobility in the first place: to facilitate socializing.
I think as long as you remain aware of the particular obstacles facing =20
the Arabic-speaking immigrant community, there is nothing insensitive =20
about it. You shouldn't worry about that fatwa. It was issued by a =20
Saudi Wahhabi cleric who, in an internet search, has nothing to his =20
name except the Elaph article you mention (Elaph is also a Saudi-=20
funded publication, it should be noted) and another media article =20
about that fatwa. The guy is a one-hit-wonder in the world of ultra-=20
conservative Islam and his "fatwawawa" should be treated with an =20
appropriate level of scorn.
Nevertheless, some Muslim women in Holland will take this fatwa =20
seriously, and the Elaph article mentions an Iraqi woman living in =20
Holland for 9 years who is among these. The key would be, if the =20
issue comes up, to simply acknowledge the fatwa and indicate where it =20
comes from and point out that, as that second article mentions, =20
neither the Quran nor the hadiths ever forbade women from riding =20
mules. The membership of the Egyptian cycling club/advocacy =20
organization I mentioned is majority female, the majority of whom are, =20
in turn, wearing the hijab. From a religious perspective, it should =20
be even less of a problem with the Moroccan immigrants you mention, =20
most of whom will be adherents to the Maliki school of Islamic law, =20
and thus paying far more attention to fatwas from the Mufti of Al-=20
Azhar in Cairo (I'll do some digging to see if he has anything to say =20
about "the sexuality of the saddle"), or even more likely to the =20
advice of the incredibly popular (especially in the "West") Muslim =20
televangelist Amr Khaled, who I'm sure would never suggest something =20
so idiotic (not that he doesn't suggest plenty of idiotic things).
In any case, the Elaph article focuses more on the practical (non-=20
religious) difficulties facing Arab immigrant women trying to learn to =20
ride a bike in Holland. The Google Translate version is here:
http://tiny.cc/yerAJ
Automatic translators are pretty poor with Arabic (they confuse =20
"nationality" and "sexuality" for instance), so if you're interested, =20
I can do a proper translation (or summary anyway). The other article =20
about the fatwa is more intelligible through Google Translate and can =20
be found here:
http://tiny.cc/loibZ
As for the status value of a bike, I'm not sure about Morocco, but =20
here in Egypt, it depends quite a lot on age, class and urbanization. =20
Teens are less likely to be interested in bikes, as are those from =20
higher classes, as are those from the city. When I was in Upper Egypt =20
and the desert oases, kids up to the early teens had some pretty =20
tricked-out rigs that made it evident they took a lot of pride in =20
them. Even in the center of Cairo, youth of all ages, everyone in =20
fact, is as impressed with a little bit of old-school bike bling as =20
anywhere else, perhaps even more so. I'm constantly having to turn =20
down offers for people to buy my steel frame bike with fancy lugs. =20
Show kids anything other than the cheapo mass-produced Chinese and =20
Indian bikes that populate the streets here and they get excited. I'm =20
guessing it would be the same in Holland. It doesn't necessarily have =20
to be "boutique", just out of the ordinary.
Anyway, hope this all helps and sorry for being so verbose. When I =20
move to Washington DC in the summer, I'm hoping to get involved with =20
Arab immigrant solidarity work and helping to establish a bike =20
collective, so this issue sits at the nexus of my two biggest passions =20
at the moment.
Best of luck and keep us posted!
Fhar
On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wendy Monroe wrote:
> HI Christine,
>
> Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. Would =20
> it show cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the =20
> immigrant population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle?
>
> One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at the =20
> bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling itself. =20
> It is more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle together =20
> outside their homes.
>
> This research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me:
> 'Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for =20
> many of them an =E2=80=9Cuncanny,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cdangerous,=E2=80=9D and=
also =E2=80=9Cweird=E2=80=9D activity =20
> predominantly reserved for the ethnic Dutch'
>
> Yup, that would explain a few things...
>
> I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the =20
> Dutch government .. tens of millions of euros each year!!... to =20
> encourage immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign =20
> might be to instead send teams of cyclists to rove around major =20
> cities in Holland, handing out 20 euro notes, to each woman seen =20
> riding along with a head scarf on...every single day.
>
> I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over in =20
> a youth population of Moroccans,... ' where the bicycle has a bad =20
> image and little status value..'
>
> Would they even show up for such a program?
>
> I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless it =20
> is marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of =20
> repairing scooters and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to =20
> those of us who came from a California-style bike culture. But it =20
> may be the social reality here.
>
> Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, =20
> Google Translate!)
>
> "The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com =20
> "(29/12/207) is a sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as =20
> was the fatwa on" nursing major. "Indeed, the last discovery of a =20
> fatwa that forbids Muslim women to practice cycling, because =20
> according to the religion that spread, "straddle the saddle of the =20
> bicycle engender women as sexual arousal, and the bike becomes this =20
> point of view, a prohibited object. "
>
> My first reaction being, ' Oh damn, now Men know our =20
> Secret!!' (Just kidding.)
>
> I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will =20
> sign off and read the rest of that article...
>
> cheers,
>
> Wendy
> _______________________________________________
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--===============5466645494301357420==--
From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Tue Mar 10 22:22:21 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Further thoughts on bicycle saddles and
injunctions against riding on them...
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:22:16 +0100
Message-ID: <3DA1A1B9-72C9-4AA4-AA0C-81AF58240FF3@usermail.com>
In-Reply-To: <3C9F5E59-AA18-4F87-AFDD-B7B653F62BAA@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1722212927999469831=="
--===============1722212927999469831==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI Fhar,
What a fascinating post... I will try to respond as well as I can.. =20
sorry if this is a bit rambling...
I would love to know more about the Egyptian bike advocacy group, and =20
especially to see any photos you might have of the tricked-out desert =20
Oasis bikes!
I too, have a bike that is unusual, by local standards, an orange and =20
black Tiger-striped Bernie Mikkelsen frame with a Sturmey 3-speed hub =20
and an old Super Record derailleur as a chain tensioner. It reminds =20
me of 'home,' Berkeley, California.
In contrast to the reactions of kids in Cairo, Dutch people are =20
horrified by this bike, and find it very ugly. They think it has too =20
many colors! ( ie it should be all black!)
It is true, getting a drivers' license in Holland is an expensive =20
proposition... =E2=82=AC1900 euros for mandatory driving instruction, and the=
=20
traffic theory book one must study is hundreds of pages long... ( and =20
in Dutch) I have been pondering whether it would be worth it to try, =20
myself.
About the Fatwa... I am a little nervous about even discussing this =20
with my friend Mina.. for fear of sounding insensitive.. I grew up in =20
Berkeley in the 60's where ALL religions were treated as fairy =20
tales... except ones such as EST... I will approach this subject very =20
delicately... for fear of making a faux pas.
Before reading the link Christine posted, I had no idea there was =20
serious discussion of sexuality vis a vis bike saddles, , let alone =20
different factions in this debate!
Any woman knows that in fact the 'sit-bones' of the back of one's =20
pelvis are what contacts the saddle, but apparently, no one is asking =20
US.
Also, you may be well aware of the relationship in the U.S. between =20
Amelia Bloomers' invention of pants that women could wear based on a =20
Turkish Design, I might add...
and women's being able to politically organize by bicycle and getting =20
the right to vote in 1927. It may not have been possible, if women =20
had not been riding bicycles...
Yes, there is a long history of women's gaining increased mobility and =20
freedom via bike riding...
( Google translate does get a little vague when translating from =20
Arabic....)
I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will admit, =20
that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him =20
or her ?
ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually =20
true for some people??
(Or, am I missing out on something?!)
There is a Dutch-made saddle, that I now have an entirely different =20
understanding about... I had thought this was designed for riding =20
over cobblestones!
Fhar, I am going to have to sit down and thoroughly read both the =20
articles you sent links to, then think about what was probably meant, =20
ask my friend Mina about her perspective, then
I will ask you about any remaining questions, if you don't mind.
Does the original version of the first article mention motorcycles at =20
all, or should I substitute 'bicycle' for every time I see =20
'motorcycle.' ?
Riding them is no doubt a very different experience, I would be =20
surprised to see them put in the same category as bikes...
Uh oh, my husband, who is from Washington DC, says it is a =20
particularly dangerous place for bike riding.
Congratulations on your plan to do bicycle advocacy work there.. but =20
please be careful!
High Five, Fhar!
met vriendelijke groeten,
Wendy
Op Mar 10, 2009, om 1:12 PM heeft Fhar Miess het volgende geschreven:
> Wendy,
>
> This is a very interesting problem, and I don't think it would be =20
> culturally insensitive to "try to win the immigrant population of =20
> Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle". I'm currently =20
> living in Cairo where there is a group of Egyptians who are doing =20
> bicycle advocacy. There is nothing particularly evocative of =20
> "western hegemony" in it (until they start talking about traffic =20
> laws, anyway), although there might be an argument that it is =20
> somewhat classist. Also, the truth of the matter is that it seems =20
> to be a simple matter of mobility and freedom of movement in a place =20
> where they find it difficult to get a drivers license and cycling is =20
> more the norm anyway. They likely have more interest in socializing =20
> because that's the reason for mobility in the first place: to =20
> facilitate socializing.
>
> I think as long as you remain aware of the particular obstacles =20
> facing the Arabic-speaking immigrant community, there is nothing =20
> insensitive about it. You shouldn't worry about that fatwa. It was =20
> issued by a Saudi Wahhabi cleric who, in an internet search, has =20
> nothing to his name except the Elaph article you mention (Elaph is =20
> also a Saudi-funded publication, it should be noted) and another =20
> media article about that fatwa. The guy is a one-hit-wonder in the =20
> world of ultra-conservative Islam and his "fatwawawa" should be =20
> treated with an appropriate level of scorn.
>
> Nevertheless, some Muslim women in Holland will take this fatwa =20
> seriously, and the Elaph article mentions an Iraqi woman living in =20
> Holland for 9 years who is among these. The key would be, if the =20
> issue comes up, to simply acknowledge the fatwa and indicate where =20
> it comes from and point out that, as that second article mentions, =20
> neither the Quran nor the hadiths ever forbade women from riding =20
> mules. The membership of the Egyptian cycling club/advocacy =20
> organization I mentioned is majority female, the majority of whom =20
> are, in turn, wearing the hijab. From a religious perspective, it =20
> should be even less of a problem with the Moroccan immigrants you =20
> mention, most of whom will be adherents to the Maliki school of =20
> Islamic law, and thus paying far more attention to fatwas from the =20
> Mufti of Al-Azhar in Cairo (I'll do some digging to see if he has =20
> anything to say about "the sexuality of the saddle"), or even more =20
> likely to the advice of the incredibly popular (especially in the =20
> "West") Muslim televangelist Amr Khaled, who I'm sure would never =20
> suggest something so idiotic (not that he doesn't suggest plenty of =20
> idiotic things).
>
> In any case, the Elaph article focuses more on the practical (non-=20
> religious) difficulties facing Arab immigrant women trying to learn =20
> to ride a bike in Holland. The Google Translate version is here:
>
> http://tiny.cc/yerAJ
>
> Automatic translators are pretty poor with Arabic (they confuse =20
> "nationality" and "sexuality" for instance), so if you're =20
> interested, I can do a proper translation (or summary anyway). The =20
> other article about the fatwa is more intelligible through Google =20
> Translate and can be found here:
>
> http://tiny.cc/loibZ
>
> As for the status value of a bike, I'm not sure about Morocco, but =20
> here in Egypt, it depends quite a lot on age, class and =20
> urbanization. Teens are less likely to be interested in bikes, as =20
> are those from higher classes, as are those from the city. When I =20
> was in Upper Egypt and the desert oases, kids up to the early teens =20
> had some pretty tricked-out rigs that made it evident they took a =20
> lot of pride in them. Even in the center of Cairo, youth of all =20
> ages, everyone in fact, is as impressed with a little bit of old-=20
> school bike bling as anywhere else, perhaps even more so. I'm =20
> constantly having to turn down offers for people to buy my steel =20
> frame bike with fancy lugs. Show kids anything other than the =20
> cheapo mass-produced Chinese and Indian bikes that populate the =20
> streets here and they get excited. I'm guessing it would be the =20
> same in Holland. It doesn't necessarily have to be "boutique", just =20
> out of the ordinary.
>
> Anyway, hope this all helps and sorry for being so verbose. When I =20
> move to Washington DC in the summer, I'm hoping to get involved with =20
> Arab immigrant solidarity work and helping to establish a bike =20
> collective, so this issue sits at the nexus of my two biggest =20
> passions at the moment.
>
> Best of luck and keep us posted!
>
> Fhar
>
> On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wendy Monroe wrote:
>
>> HI Christine,
>>
>> Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. Would =20
>> it show cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the =20
>> immigrant population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling =20
>> lifestyle?
>>
>> One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at =20
>> the bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling =20
>> itself. It is more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle =20
>> together outside their homes.
>>
>> This research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me:
>> 'Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for =20
>> many of them an =E2=80=9Cuncanny,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cdangerous,=E2=80=9D an=
d also =E2=80=9Cweird=E2=80=9D activity =20
>> predominantly reserved for the ethnic Dutch'
>>
>> Yup, that would explain a few things...
>>
>> I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the =20
>> Dutch government .. tens of millions of euros each year!!... to =20
>> encourage immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign =20
>> might be to instead send teams of cyclists to rove around major =20
>> cities in Holland, handing out 20 euro notes, to each woman seen =20
>> riding along with a head scarf on...every single day.
>>
>> I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over =20
>> in a youth population of Moroccans,... ' where the bicycle has a =20
>> bad image and little status value..'
>>
>> Would they even show up for such a program?
>>
>> I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless =20
>> it is marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of =20
>> repairing scooters and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to =20
>> those of us who came from a California-style bike culture. But it =20
>> may be the social reality here.
>>
>> Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, =20
>> Google Translate!)
>>
>> "The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com =20
>> "(29/12/207) is a sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as =20
>> was the fatwa on" nursing major. "Indeed, the last discovery of a =20
>> fatwa that forbids Muslim women to practice cycling, because =20
>> according to the religion that spread, "straddle the saddle of the =20
>> bicycle engender women as sexual arousal, and the bike becomes this =20
>> point of view, a prohibited object. "
>>
>> My first reaction being, ' Oh damn, now Men know our =20
>> Secret!!' (Just kidding.)
>>
>> I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will =20
>> sign off and read the rest of that article...
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Wendy
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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--===============1722212927999469831==--
From re-cycles@rogers.com Mon Mar 16 10:14:53 2009
From: Chris Wells
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Further thoughts on bicycle saddles and
injunctions against riding on them...
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:14:51 -0700
Message-ID: <299862.42826.qm@web88203.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <3DA1A1B9-72C9-4AA4-AA0C-81AF58240FF3@usermail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7549870823049441385=="
--===============7549870823049441385==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Wendy,
Other than a little numbness on very long rides (or if the saddle is not slig=
htly tipped forward), as a male, I don't derive any sensation from a bike sad=
dle (other than sore sit bones). Over the years 2 female acquaintences have c=
onfided in me that they experienced significant discomfort from friction towa=
rds the front of the saddle (even when it was tipped forward) which could las=
t for several days after a long ride. They were both very happy to hear about=
the latest (at that time) female specific saddles with a hole in the base or=
all the way through the saddle at the front.
Chris Wells
(Head Mechanic & Email Handler)
re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op
477 Bronson Ave. Ottawa
info(a)re-cycles.ca
http://www.re-cycles.ca/
--- On Wed, 3/11/09, Wendy Monroe wrote:
> From: Wendy Monroe
>=20
> I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will
> admit, that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually
> exciting for him or her ?
> ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is
> this actually true for some people??
>=20
> (Or, am I missing out on something?!)
--===============7549870823049441385==--
From krista@slcbikecollective.org Mon Mar 16 18:43:05 2009
From: Krista Bowers
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Further thoughts on bicycle saddles and
injunctions against riding on them...
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:43:03 -0600
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <3DA1A1B9-72C9-4AA4-AA0C-81AF58240FF3@usermail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1040528042795384297=="
--===============1040528042795384297==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will admit, that
riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him or her
?
ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually true
for some people??"
Okay, I fess up: I find it rather exciting--although I don't know if that
is because of the saddle or just because I find bikes in general pretty
exciting! :)
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Wendy Monroe w=
rote:
> HI Fhar, What a fascinating post... I will try to respond as well as I
> can.. sorry if this is a bit rambling...
>
> I would *love* to know more about the Egyptian bike advocacy group, and
> especially to see any photos you might have of the tricked-out desert Oasis
> bikes!
>
> I too, have a bike that is unusual, by local standards, an orange and black
> Tiger-striped Bernie Mikkelsen frame with a Sturmey 3-speed hub and an old
> Super Record derailleur as a chain tensioner. It reminds me of 'home,'
> Berkeley, California.
>
> In contrast to the reactions of kids in Cairo, Dutch people are horrified
> by this bike, and find it very ugly. They think it has too many colors! (
> ie it should be all black!)
>
> It is true, getting a drivers' license in Holland is an expensive
> proposition... =E2=82=AC1900 euros for mandatory driving instruction, and t=
he
> traffic theory book one must study is hundreds of pages long... ( and in
> Dutch) I have been pondering whether it would be worth it to try, myself.
>
> About the Fatwa... I am a little nervous about even discussing this with my
> friend Mina.. for fear of sounding insensitive.. I grew up in Berkeley in
> the 60's where ALL religions were treated as fairy tales... except ones
> such as EST... I will approach this subject very delicately... for fear of
> making a faux pas.
>
> Before reading the link Christine posted, I had no idea there was serious
> *discussion* of sexuality vis a vis bike saddles, , let alone *different
> factions* in this debate!
>
> Any woman knows that in fact the 'sit-bones' of the back of one's pelvis
> are what contacts the saddle, but apparently, no one is asking US.
>
> Also, you may be well aware of the relationship in the U.S. between Amelia
> Bloomers' invention of pants that women could wear *based on a Turkish
> Design, *I might add...
> and women's being able to politically organize by bicycle and getting the
> right to vote in 1927. It may not have been possible, if women had not been
> riding bicycles...
>
> Yes, there is a long history of women's gaining increased mobility and
> freedom via bike riding...
>
> ( Google translate *does* get a little vague when translating from
> Arabic....)
>
> I have a question: Is there *any person* who claims, or will admit, that
> riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him or her ?
>
> ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually *true
> * for some people??
>
> (Or, am I missing out on something?!)
>
> There is a Dutch-made saddle, that I now have an *entirely different
> understanding about.*.. I had thought this was designed for riding over
> cobblestones!
>
>
>
> Fhar, I am going to have to sit down and thoroughly read both the articles
> you sent links to, then think about what was probably meant, ask my friend
> Mina about her perspective, then
> I will ask you about any remaining questions, if you don't mind.
>
> Does the original version of the first article mention motorcycles at all,
> or should I substitute 'bicycle' for every time I see 'motorcycle.' ?
>
> Riding *them* is no doubt a very different experience, I would be
> surprised to see them put in the same category as bikes...
>
> Uh oh, my husband, who is from Washington DC, says it is a particularly
> dangerous place for bike riding.
>
> Congratulations on your plan to do bicycle advocacy work there.. but please
> be careful!
>
> High Five, Fhar!
>
> met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Wendy
>
>
>
> Op Mar 10, 2009, om 1:12 PM heeft Fhar Miess het volgende geschreven:
>
> Wendy,
>
> This is a very interesting problem, and I don't think it would be
> culturally insensitive to "try to win the immigrant population of Amsterdam
> Noord over to the cycling lifestyle". I'm currently living in Cairo where
> there is a group of Egyptians who are doing bicycle advocacy. There is
> nothing particularly evocative of "western hegemony" in it (until they start
> talking about traffic laws, anyway), although there might be an argument
> that it is somewhat classist. Also, the truth of the matter is that it
> seems to be a simple matter of mobility and freedom of movement in a place
> where they find it difficult to get a drivers license and cycling is more
> the norm anyway. They likely have more interest in socializing because
> that's the reason for mobility in the first place: to facilitate
> socializing.
>
> I think as long as you remain aware of the particular obstacles facing the
> Arabic-speaking immigrant community, there is nothing insensitive about it.
> You shouldn't worry about that fatwa. It was issued by a Saudi Wahhabi
> cleric who, in an internet search, has nothing to his name except the Elaph
> article you mention (Elaph is also a Saudi-funded publication, it should be
> noted) and another media article about that fatwa. The guy is a
> one-hit-wonder in the world of ultra-conservative Islam and his "fatwawawa"
> should be treated with an appropriate level of scorn.
>
> Nevertheless, some Muslim women in Holland will take this fatwa seriously,
> and the Elaph article mentions an Iraqi woman living in Holland for 9 years
> who is among these. The key would be, if the issue comes up, to simply
> acknowledge the fatwa and indicate where it comes from and point out that,
> as that second article mentions, neither the Quran nor the hadiths ever
> forbade women from riding mules. The membership of the Egyptian cycling
> club/advocacy organization I mentioned is majority female, the majority of
> whom are, in turn, wearing the hijab. From a religious perspective, it
> should be even less of a problem with the Moroccan immigrants you mention,
> most of whom will be adherents to the Maliki school of Islamic law, and thus
> paying far more attention to fatwas from the Mufti of Al-Azhar in Cairo
> (I'll do some digging to see if he has anything to say about "the sexuality
> of the saddle"), or even more likely to the advice of the incredibly popular
> (especially in the "West") Muslim televangelist Amr Khaled, who I'm sure
> would never suggest something so idiotic (not that he doesn't suggest plenty
> of idiotic things).
>
> In any case, the Elaph article focuses more on the practical
> (non-religious) difficulties facing Arab immigrant women trying to learn to
> ride a bike in Holland. The Google Translate version is here:
>
> http://tiny.cc/yerAJ
>
> Automatic translators are pretty poor with Arabic (they confuse
> "nationality" and "sexuality" for instance), so if you're interested, I can
> do a proper translation (or summary anyway). The other article about the
> fatwa is more intelligible through Google Translate and can be found here:
>
> http://tiny.cc/loibZ
>
> As for the status value of a bike, I'm not sure about Morocco, but here in
> Egypt, it depends quite a lot on age, class and urbanization. Teens are
> less likely to be interested in bikes, as are those from higher classes, as
> are those from the city. When I was in Upper Egypt and the desert oases,
> kids up to the early teens had some pretty tricked-out rigs that made it
> evident they took a lot of pride in them. Even in the center of Cairo,
> youth of all ages, everyone in fact, is as impressed with a little bit of
> old-school bike bling as anywhere else, perhaps even more so. I'm
> constantly having to turn down offers for people to buy my steel frame bike
> with fancy lugs. Show kids anything other than the cheapo mass-produced
> Chinese and Indian bikes that populate the streets here and they get
> excited. I'm guessing it would be the same in Holland. It doesn't
> necessarily have to be "boutique", just out of the ordinary.
>
> Anyway, hope this all helps and sorry for being so verbose. When I move to
> Washington DC in the summer, I'm hoping to get involved with Arab immigrant
> solidarity work and helping to establish a bike collective, so this issue
> sits at the nexus of my two biggest passions at the moment.
>
> Best of luck and keep us posted!
>
> Fhar
>
> On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wendy Monroe wrote:
>
> HI Christine,
> Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. Would it show
> cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the immigrant population of
> Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle?
>
> One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at the
> bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling *itself*. It is
> more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle together outside their
> homes.
>
> *This* research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me:
> '*Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for many
> of them an =E2=80=9Cuncanny,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cdangerous,=E2=80=9D and also=
=E2=80=9Cweird=E2=80=9D activity predominantly
> reserved for the ethnic Dutch'*
> *
> *
> Yup, that would explain a few things...
>
> I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the Dutch
> government .. *tens* of millions of euros each year!!... to encourage
> immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign might be to instead
> send teams of cyclists to rove around major cities in Holland, handing out
> 20 euro notes, to each woman seen riding along with a head scarf on...every
> single day.
>
> I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over in a
> youth population of Moroccans,... *' where the bicycle has a bad image
> and little status value..'*
> *
> *
> Would they even *show up* for such a program?
>
> I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless it is
> marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of repairing scooters
> and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to those of us who came from a
> California-style bike culture. But it may be the social reality here.
>
> Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, Google
> Translate!)
>
> "The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com "(29/12/207) is a
> sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as was the fatwa on" nursing
> major.
> "Indeed, the last discovery of a fatwa that forbids Muslim women to
> practice cycling, because according to the religion that spread, "*straddle
> the saddle of the bicycle engender women as sexual arousal, and the bike
> becomes this point of view, a prohibited object. "*
>
> My first reaction being, ' Oh *damn*, now Men know our Secret!!'
> (Just kidding.)
>
> I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will sign off
> and read the rest of that article...
>
> cheers,
>
> Wendy
> _______________________________________________
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>
--=20
Sincerely,
Krista Bowers
Volunteer Coordinator
Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective
2312 S. West Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84115
w: 801-328-2453
c: 801-688-9379
f: 801-466-3856
krista(a)slcbikecollective.org
www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank!
http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
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From wendy.monroe@usermail.com Thu Mar 19 21:55:23 2009
From: Wendy Monroe
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Further thoughts on bicycle saddles and
injunctions against riding on them...
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:55:16 +0100
Message-ID: <69A22808-8794-4A7E-B1A1-534F090D3D56@usermail.com>
In-Reply-To:
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Yeah, I confess to experiencing the wind-in-the-hair kind of Bicycle =20
Pleasure. ( Fietsplezier, in Dutch)
But from the saddle itself... naah. I am glad that is isn't making =20
me sore... though. That is apparently pretty common..
Wendy
On Mar 17, 2009, at 2:43 AM, Krista Bowers wrote:
> "I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will admit, =20
> that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him =20
> or her ?
> ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually =20
> true for some people??"
>
>
> Okay, I fess up: I find it rather exciting--although I don't know =20
> if that is because of the saddle or just because I find bikes in =20
> general pretty exciting! :)
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Wendy Monroe > wrote:
> HI Fhar,
> What a fascinating post... I will try to respond as well as I can.. =20
> sorry if this is a bit rambling...
>
> I would love to know more about the Egyptian bike advocacy group, =20
> and especially to see any photos you might have of the tricked-out =20
> desert Oasis bikes!
>
> I too, have a bike that is unusual, by local standards, an orange =20
> and black Tiger-striped Bernie Mikkelsen frame with a Sturmey 3-=20
> speed hub and an old Super Record derailleur as a chain tensioner. =20
> It reminds me of 'home,' Berkeley, California.
>
> In contrast to the reactions of kids in Cairo, Dutch people are =20
> horrified by this bike, and find it very ugly. They think it has =20
> too many colors! ( ie it should be all black!)
>
> It is true, getting a drivers' license in Holland is an expensive =20
> proposition... =E2=82=AC1900 euros for mandatory driving instruction, and =
> the traffic theory book one must study is hundreds of pages long... =20
> ( and in Dutch) I have been pondering whether it would be worth it =20
> to try, myself.
>
> About the Fatwa... I am a little nervous about even discussing this =20
> with my friend Mina.. for fear of sounding insensitive.. I grew up =20
> in Berkeley in the 60's where ALL religions were treated as fairy =20
> tales... except ones such as EST... I will approach this subject =20
> very delicately... for fear of making a faux pas.
>
> Before reading the link Christine posted, I had no idea there was =20
> serious discussion of sexuality vis a vis bike saddles, , let alone =20
> different factions in this debate!
>
> Any woman knows that in fact the 'sit-bones' of the back of one's =20
> pelvis are what contacts the saddle, but apparently, no one is =20
> asking US.
>
> Also, you may be well aware of the relationship in the U.S. between =20
> Amelia Bloomers' invention of pants that women could wear based on a =20
> Turkish Design, I might add...
> and women's being able to politically organize by bicycle and =20
> getting the right to vote in 1927. It may not have been possible, =20
> if women had not been riding bicycles...
>
> Yes, there is a long history of women's gaining increased mobility =20
> and freedom via bike riding...
>
> ( Google translate does get a little vague when translating from =20
> Arabic....)
>
> I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will admit, =20
> that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him =20
> or her ?
> ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually =20
> true for some people??
>
> (Or, am I missing out on something?!)
>
> There is a Dutch-made saddle, that I now have an entirely different =20
> understanding about... I had thought this was designed for riding =20
> over cobblestones!
>
>
>
> Fhar, I am going to have to sit down and thoroughly read both the =20
> articles you sent links to, then think about what was probably =20
> meant, ask my friend Mina about her perspective, then
> I will ask you about any remaining questions, if you don't mind.
>
> Does the original version of the first article mention motorcycles =20
> at all, or should I substitute 'bicycle' for every time I see =20
> 'motorcycle.' ?
>
> Riding them is no doubt a very different experience, I would be =20
> surprised to see them put in the same category as bikes...
>
> Uh oh, my husband, who is from Washington DC, says it is a =20
> particularly dangerous place for bike riding.
>
> Congratulations on your plan to do bicycle advocacy work there.. but =20
> please be careful!
>
> High Five, Fhar!
>
> met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Wendy
>
>
>
> Op Mar 10, 2009, om 1:12 PM heeft Fhar Miess het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Wendy,
>>
>> This is a very interesting problem, and I don't think it would be =20
>> culturally insensitive to "try to win the immigrant population of =20
>> Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle". I'm currently =20
>> living in Cairo where there is a group of Egyptians who are doing =20
>> bicycle advocacy. There is nothing particularly evocative of =20
>> "western hegemony" in it (until they start talking about traffic =20
>> laws, anyway), although there might be an argument that it is =20
>> somewhat classist. Also, the truth of the matter is that it seems =20
>> to be a simple matter of mobility and freedom of movement in a =20
>> place where they find it difficult to get a drivers license and =20
>> cycling is more the norm anyway. They likely have more interest in =20
>> socializing because that's the reason for mobility in the first =20
>> place: to facilitate socializing.
>>
>> I think as long as you remain aware of the particular obstacles =20
>> facing the Arabic-speaking immigrant community, there is nothing =20
>> insensitive about it. You shouldn't worry about that fatwa. It =20
>> was issued by a Saudi Wahhabi cleric who, in an internet search, =20
>> has nothing to his name except the Elaph article you mention (Elaph =20
>> is also a Saudi-funded publication, it should be noted) and another =20
>> media article about that fatwa. The guy is a one-hit-wonder in the =20
>> world of ultra-conservative Islam and his "fatwawawa" should be =20
>> treated with an appropriate level of scorn.
>>
>> Nevertheless, some Muslim women in Holland will take this fatwa =20
>> seriously, and the Elaph article mentions an Iraqi woman living in =20
>> Holland for 9 years who is among these. The key would be, if the =20
>> issue comes up, to simply acknowledge the fatwa and indicate where =20
>> it comes from and point out that, as that second article mentions, =20
>> neither the Quran nor the hadiths ever forbade women from riding =20
>> mules. The membership of the Egyptian cycling club/advocacy =20
>> organization I mentioned is majority female, the majority of whom =20
>> are, in turn, wearing the hijab. From a religious perspective, it =20
>> should be even less of a problem with the Moroccan immigrants you =20
>> mention, most of whom will be adherents to the Maliki school of =20
>> Islamic law, and thus paying far more attention to fatwas from the =20
>> Mufti of Al-Azhar in Cairo (I'll do some digging to see if he has =20
>> anything to say about "the sexuality of the saddle"), or even more =20
>> likely to the advice of the incredibly popular (especially in the =20
>> "West") Muslim televangelist Amr Khaled, who I'm sure would never =20
>> suggest something so idiotic (not that he doesn't suggest plenty of =20
>> idiotic things).
>>
>> In any case, the Elaph article focuses more on the practical (non-=20
>> religious) difficulties facing Arab immigrant women trying to learn =20
>> to ride a bike in Holland. The Google Translate version is here:
>>
>> http://tiny.cc/yerAJ
>>
>> Automatic translators are pretty poor with Arabic (they confuse =20
>> "nationality" and "sexuality" for instance), so if you're =20
>> interested, I can do a proper translation (or summary anyway). The =20
>> other article about the fatwa is more intelligible through Google =20
>> Translate and can be found here:
>>
>> http://tiny.cc/loibZ
>>
>> As for the status value of a bike, I'm not sure about Morocco, but =20
>> here in Egypt, it depends quite a lot on age, class and =20
>> urbanization. Teens are less likely to be interested in bikes, as =20
>> are those from higher classes, as are those from the city. When I =20
>> was in Upper Egypt and the desert oases, kids up to the early teens =20
>> had some pretty tricked-out rigs that made it evident they took a =20
>> lot of pride in them. Even in the center of Cairo, youth of all =20
>> ages, everyone in fact, is as impressed with a little bit of old-=20
>> school bike bling as anywhere else, perhaps even more so. I'm =20
>> constantly having to turn down offers for people to buy my steel =20
>> frame bike with fancy lugs. Show kids anything other than the =20
>> cheapo mass-produced Chinese and Indian bikes that populate the =20
>> streets here and they get excited. I'm guessing it would be the =20
>> same in Holland. It doesn't necessarily have to be "boutique", =20
>> just out of the ordinary.
>>
>> Anyway, hope this all helps and sorry for being so verbose. When I =20
>> move to Washington DC in the summer, I'm hoping to get involved =20
>> with Arab immigrant solidarity work and helping to establish a bike =20
>> collective, so this issue sits at the nexus of my two biggest =20
>> passions at the moment.
>>
>> Best of luck and keep us posted!
>>
>> Fhar
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wendy Monroe wrote:
>>
>>> HI Christine,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. =20
>>> Would it show cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the =20
>>> immigrant population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling =20
>>> lifestyle?
>>>
>>> One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at =20
>>> the bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling =20
>>> itself. It is more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle =20
>>> together outside their homes.
>>>
>>> This research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me:
>>> 'Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for =20
>>> many of them an =E2=80=9Cuncanny,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cdangerous,=E2=80=9D a=
nd also =E2=80=9Cweird=E2=80=9D activity =20
>>> predominantly reserved for the ethnic Dutch'
>>>
>>> Yup, that would explain a few things...
>>>
>>> I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the =20
>>> Dutch government .. tens of millions of euros each year!!... to =20
>>> encourage immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign =20
>>> might be to instead send teams of cyclists to rove around major =20
>>> cities in Holland, handing out 20 euro notes, to each woman seen =20
>>> riding along with a head scarf on...every single day.
>>>
>>> I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over =20
>>> in a youth population of Moroccans,... ' where the bicycle has a =20
>>> bad image and little status value..'
>>>
>>> Would they even show up for such a program?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless =20
>>> it is marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of =20
>>> repairing scooters and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to =20
>>> those of us who came from a California-style bike culture. But it =20
>>> may be the social reality here.
>>>
>>> Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, =20
>>> Google Translate!)
>>>
>>> "The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com =20
>>> "(29/12/207) is a sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as =20
>>> was the fatwa on" nursing major. "Indeed, the last discovery of a =20
>>> fatwa that forbids Muslim women to practice cycling, because =20
>>> according to the religion that spread, "straddle the saddle of the =20
>>> bicycle engender women as sexual arousal, and the bike becomes =20
>>> this point of view, a prohibited object. "
>>>
>>> My first reaction being, ' Oh damn, now Men know our =20
>>> Secret!!' (Just kidding.)
>>>
>>> I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will =20
>>> sign off and read the rest of that article...
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>> Wendy
>>> _______________________________________________
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s.org
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s.org
>>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> --=20
> Sincerely,
>
> Krista Bowers
> Volunteer Coordinator
> Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective
> 2312 S. West Temple
> Salt Lake City, UT 84115
> w: 801-328-2453
> c: 801-688-9379
> f: 801-466-3856
> krista(a)slcbikecollective.org
> www.slcbikecollective.org
>
> Get Addicted to Crank!
> http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
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