I hope to have TAP help with this, but our response time is often not as quick as I'd like. At any rate, we will have more to offer later.Thus far, all I have been doing is following the conversation.


I did need to jump in with an addition to Jonah's suggestion. If the insulation is placed below the rafters, the rafter bays must be vented to the outside. Any volume of trapped air will sooner or later develop condensation because some moist air from below will find a way through.  Once that gets wet, it stays wet unless vented.  Imagine a dripping tub with a stopper in the drain.


It is particularly hard to vent in a flat roof because you can't just put in eave and ridge venting like you can with a shingle roof. Each joist bay must be vented.


Joe Fama


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonah Vitale-Wolff" <jonah.hvnb@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 7:56am
To: "Steve Pierce" <pierce@nymediaalliance.org>
Cc: "andrew" <anyone@breathingplanet.net>, "ryan jenkins" <ryan.t.jenkins@gmail.com>, "The Think Tank" <thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>, "John Eric Johanson" <johanson.john@gmail.com>, "Ed Coolidge" <ECoolidge@techvalleyhigh.org>, "sid fleisher" <sidneyfleisher@yahoo.com>, "Joe Fama" <famajoe@tapinc.org>, "igor Vamos" <vamosi@rpi.edu>, "Jack Magai" <magaijack@gmail.com>, "Oswaldo Gonzalez" <oswaldogl@yahoo.com>, "Jim de Sève" <jim@deseve.com>, "j c" <jimneaclark@gmail.com>, "Dad" <richardelynn@mac.com>, "chris harvey" <chris@chrisharvey.biz>, "Christian Lynn" <Christianlewislynn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ceiling ideas

Hey all.
First the insulation:
I am assuming cost and ease of installation are high on the priority
list. So here's my input. I design and use all reclaimed rigid foam in
the buildings I work on. There is a guy who scavanges it off old
commercial buildings and sells it super duper cheap, so the work is done
cause yall do enough scavanging. It has the highest R-value per inch
you can get for insulation (7), is commercial quality, and is in perfect
shape. He can deliver. It sucks to cut, but is not as bad as
fiberglass (which I never ever use). I can get his number for you if
you want.

In the installation, I would suggest trying to avoid any thermal bridges
b/t the inside and outside, such as each rafter. When you infill b/t
the rafters you get an R-value only where the insulation is, and create
nice place for heat to escape at every single rafter. That's a lot when
there are rafters every 2 feet. If you can get a continuous layer of
insulation, thus avoiding those bridges, the R-value might be the same,
but is FAR more effective at keeping the heat in. R-value is a pretty
misleading concept from the industrial corporate building world.

If you have enough head height, you could install 2-3 layers of 3" foam
below the rafters, fastened with battons and long screws. If headheight
is an issue, put 2 layers of foam b/t the rafters, and then a final
third over the ceiling to create a continuous layer, also attached with
batons and long screws.

I would say with 3 layers of 3" foam you will be nice and toasty.

The ceiling options:
If you do the rigid foam thing you will have the batons to attach
whatever you want to the ceiling. There are a million options.
Basically, anything that can be nailed to wood. Some ideas are: wood of
some sort. This is nice because you could hang things anywhere in the
room from it. It could be nothing at all. It could be reed matts. Old
tin. Bamboo splits. Definitely doesnt need to be sheetrock.

And I think Steve is right about making sure the structural stuff is all
good before filling it all in.

Let me know if I can be more help thinking this thru.
Keep up the awesome work. It looks amazing.

Jonah Vitale-Wolff
Hudson Valley Natural Building
(518) 658-3221
(518) 229-1339 (c)

On 7/28/2011 11:26 PM, Steve Pierce wrote:
> Nice photos. You've come a long way fast! Anyhoo...
> It might be worth getting an evaluation of the load carrying capacity of the TBR ceiling sooner rather than later. If you can't put much weight on it anyway (or if you need to put insulation up there no matter what you do with the ceiling to get R60 or better), it could be that sheetrocking the ceiling and putting a buttload of insulation above it is the cheapest way to go. With volunteers clearing the floor around some scaffolding on wheels (or sheetrock jacks), it might not take professional sheetrockers too long to do it. Too bad Keef is no longer with us, but maybe there's a non-singing mudmaster who compares.
> At this point I think we should be developing a spreadsheet with some prices so we can actually compare:
> For each room:
> 1. Tear out existing TBR ceiling, dispose of it, clean up surfaces
> 2. (a) Staple foilish insulation between the joists and add insulation up to R-60ish
> (b) Sheetrock, float, paint and add insulation up to R-60ish
> (c) Something else and add insulation up to R-60ish
> (d) Something else and add insulation up to R-60ish
> (e) Something else and add insulation up to R-60ish
> 3. (Maybe) Put in utility track for hanging stuff from the ceiling (if the joists can support it)
> (a) Allthread?
> (b) Something else?
> (c) Something else?
> 4. Anything else needed in a bike shop that hangs from the ceiling or goes through it?
> (a) Solution 1
> (b) Solution 2
> (c) Solution 3
> 5. Install conduit/wiring for lights, ceiling fans, power (and maybe HVAC ductwork, emergency lights, fire alarm, intrusion system, telephones, computer, intercom, stereo speakers, whatever might be necessary in the future)
> You might need information on building code requirements so you can be future-proofing whatever is done (ie, can you anticipate any expansion of TBR activities that would require building systems you don't have/need now?).
> Photos of Sculpture Space, a cool industrial artist non-profit in Utica (http://sculpturespace.org/facilities), attached...
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 10:23 PM, andrew wrote:
>> hi friends,
>> i am wondering if anyone out there bike space builders or otherwise have heard of or used any creative alternatives to sheetrock on the ceilings of industrial, loft, or community bike spaces. we want to insulate to R60 if possible.
>> we have one example of what appears to be foil-backed attic batting stapled to the joists to create an insulated, reflective, and easy/inexpensive solution, but dont have any details or specs on the materials. we are dealing with a 15 foot ceiling that is currently uninsulated tin, and is in bad shape.
>> thanks for reading and shoot me an email if you have any ideas!
>> this for a future-phase of renovation at the new Troy Bike Rescue space in Troy, NY, but we need to figure out the cost now.
>> heres some pics of the space in action
>> Before (when we got the building in January for $5000 from the city):
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/tbr.collective/WheelhouseBefore
>> After (we opened June 2 with a youth shop and open shop twice a week)
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/tbr.collective/Wheelhouse_Summer11
>> Andrew Lynn
>> http://www.troybikerescue.org