www.brockvillebikeministry.com is looking for insurance here in ontario, canada. Pease visit our site.
What we are trying to do is provide our youth of Brockville, Ontario, Canada with a donated, powder coated used bicycle that they assemble themselves.
We instruct and work with the youth for one week in the summer to build their own bike, which includes Police services coming in at the end of the week to provide, rules of the road and to licence each youths bike.
The youth leaves with a licenced bike that they assembled, complete with front/back lights, reflectors, bell and a chain and lock, new helmet.
This is completely free due to donations and a federal grant to any youth between ten and twenty years old in brockville and area.
We have a unfirm quote of Five thousand dollars just for liability only.
Please ask any questions as we have church space available to accomidate eight ten youth and volunteer helpers for each week during this coming summer.
Eric Montgomery Kelly Potvin Brockville Bike Ministry Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Are you working as a non-profit, or as a charity? This might make a difference, especially if you are under the umbrella of the Church organization. Bike Pirates has insurance through All Risk ( http://www.all-risks.com/ ) but our programming model is different, and we don't work with youth. Our total insurance cost is just under $200/month.
One thing you need to make *very* clear is that you are not building bikes, you are providing instruction and the participants are doing the work themselves. This makes a big difference in your liability.
Ainsley Bike Pirates, Toronto.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Eric Montgomery emontgo1017@gmail.comwrote:
www.brockvillebikeministry.com is looking for insurance here in ontario, canada. Pease visit our site.
What we are trying to do is provide our youth of Brockville, Ontario, Canada with a donated, powder coated used bicycle that they assemble themselves.
We instruct and work with the youth for one week in the summer to build their own bike, which includes Police services coming in at the end of the week to provide, rules of the road and to licence each youths bike.
The youth leaves with a licenced bike that they assembled, complete with front/back lights, reflectors, bell and a chain and lock, new helmet.
This is completely free due to donations and a federal grant to any youth between ten and twenty years old in brockville and area.
We have a unfirm quote of Five thousand dollars just for liability only.
Please ask any questions as we have church space available to accomidate eight ten youth and volunteer helpers for each week during this coming summer.
Eric Montgomery Kelly Potvin Brockville Bike Ministry Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being more firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who can't pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
yupyupyupyupyup
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:39 PM, charle roberts charle_roberts@yahoo.comwrote:
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On *Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com* wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
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http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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At B!KE, most of our used parts are by donation, some are higher end things which we tag accordingly. We also have a selection of new retail parts and our sales are key to keeping us open.
I have recently noticed the particular issue presented by people who are unable to contribute financially needing new cables and housing. How is it that you address this issue? There is a cost to the shop for these items, how do you address someone with no money needing new parts?
Thanks, Tegan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Yellow Bike Action < yellowbikeaction@gmail.com> wrote:
yupyupyupyupyup
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:39 PM, charle roberts charle_roberts@yahoo.comwrote:
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On *Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com* wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Yellow Bike Action Kingston, Ontario http://yellowbikeaction.googlepages.com/
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Tegan,
MoBo is volunteer run so we ask them to donate volunteer time, from sorting parts to greeting people. We always have things to do and they know how valuable it is so the work exchange works out pretty nicely for us. Our parts get sorted or our downstairs gets organized and they get cables. We have a set rate of 5$ an hour for work exchange, so if the cost is 10 bucks, they owe us 2 hours, etc.
Ellie Nava-Jones
MoBo Bicycle Cooperative a project of The Village Green Foundation 1415 Knowlton St. Cincinnati, OH www.mobobicyclecoop.org
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Tegan Moss tegan@communitybikeshop.orgwrote:
At B!KE, most of our used parts are by donation, some are higher end things which we tag accordingly. We also have a selection of new retail parts and our sales are key to keeping us open.
I have recently noticed the particular issue presented by people who are unable to contribute financially needing new cables and housing. How is it that you address this issue? There is a cost to the shop for these items, how do you address someone with no money needing new parts?
Thanks, Tegan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Yellow Bike Action < yellowbikeaction@gmail.com> wrote:
yupyupyupyupyup
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:39 PM, charle roberts <charle_roberts@yahoo.com
wrote:
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On *Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com*wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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-- Yellow Bike Action Kingston, Ontario http://yellowbikeaction.googlepages.com/
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--
B!KE: The Peterborough Community Bike Shop 336 Rubidge St, Peterborough ON (705) 775-7227 communitybikeshop.org
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I like that. Pirate just ask participants if they talk to us before hand so we eat the price to fulfil our mandate as being a space of accessibility.
What do people have to say about volunteers personal debts. This is a big problem in our space On Apr 19, 2012 11:20 AM, "MoBo Bicycle Co-op" mobobicyclecoop@gmail.com wrote:
Tegan,
MoBo is volunteer run so we ask them to donate volunteer time, from sorting parts to greeting people. We always have things to do and they know how valuable it is so the work exchange works out pretty nicely for us. Our parts get sorted or our downstairs gets organized and they get cables. We have a set rate of 5$ an hour for work exchange, so if the cost is 10 bucks, they owe us 2 hours, etc.
Ellie Nava-Jones
MoBo Bicycle Cooperative a project of The Village Green Foundation 1415 Knowlton St. Cincinnati, OH www.mobobicyclecoop.org
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Tegan Moss tegan@communitybikeshop.orgwrote:
At B!KE, most of our used parts are by donation, some are higher end things which we tag accordingly. We also have a selection of new retail parts and our sales are key to keeping us open.
I have recently noticed the particular issue presented by people who are unable to contribute financially needing new cables and housing. How is it that you address this issue? There is a cost to the shop for these items, how do you address someone with no money needing new parts?
Thanks, Tegan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Yellow Bike Action < yellowbikeaction@gmail.com> wrote:
yupyupyupyupyup
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:39 PM, charle roberts < charle_roberts@yahoo.com> wrote:
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On *Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com*wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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-- Yellow Bike Action Kingston, Ontario http://yellowbikeaction.googlepages.com/
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--
B!KE: The Peterborough Community Bike Shop 336 Rubidge St, Peterborough ON (705) 775-7227 communitybikeshop.org
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I've been following this discussion with great interest. We are a new (licensed but not yet opened) shop in a low-income part of Cleveland, pondering how to deal with this sort of issue since we are really aiming more at community mission than high profit. I thought of bartering for work on cleaning bikes, etc. (something people could do even if they are not highly skilled, but would still aim towards potential revenue generation), OR even be part of a larger community bartering situation. Has anyone found that helpful? (One of the earlier posts mentioned bartering work.) I like the idea of being in the habit of bartering.
Thanks, Nozomi
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Tegan Moss tegan@communitybikeshop.orgwrote:
At B!KE, most of our used parts are by donation, some are higher end things which we tag accordingly. We also have a selection of new retail parts and our sales are key to keeping us open.
I have recently noticed the particular issue presented by people who are unable to contribute financially needing new cables and housing. How is it that you address this issue? There is a cost to the shop for these items, how do you address someone with no money needing new parts?
Thanks, Tegan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Yellow Bike Action < yellowbikeaction@gmail.com> wrote:
yupyupyupyupyup
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:39 PM, charle roberts <charle_roberts@yahoo.com
wrote:
we at austin yellow bike project are on the same program as yellow bike programs check us out at austinyellowbike.org or email our collective at austinyellowbike@gmail.com
--- On *Fri, 4/13/12, Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com*wrote:
From: Yellow Bike Program bikerbfk@rapidnet.com
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation To: "'The Think Tank'" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Date: Friday, April 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
We at the Yellow Bike Program and Reconditioned Bikes for Kids, Inc. out of Rapid City, SD have always worked as donation only. Some items we have a suggested donation price but most things including bikes have been what they feel it is worth. Most people are pretty good about leaving a donation. Other people think it is owed to them to get it for free. It has always worked out pretty good for us.
Dale Bishop
-----Original Message----- From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:50 AM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] No suggested donation
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation?
Paul,
At the Bozeman Bike Kitchen we have a list of suggested donations but they are not clearly displayed for the public to see. Instead, our volunteer staffers almost always use a phrase that suggest people pay whatever they can afford. This often means they donate five or ten dollars more than we might have suggested. If the individual then asks if a volunteer of "X" dollars is enough we may then inform them that the "suggested donation" is "Y" if they were hoping to give too little. We are always very quick to point out that we are an organization that operates regardless of ones financial standing and that no donation of any sort is required. We typically turn our backs to some other matter and let the individual make the donation to our donation jar on their own so they do not feel any pressure. This system typically works out for the best but occasionally we have people come in who are simply cheap and give us $5 for something we would normally get $15 for.
Cheers, Sam Bozeman Bike Kitchen _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.orghttp://us.mc1201.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectiv es.org
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-- Yellow Bike Action Kingston, Ontario http://yellowbikeaction.googlepages.com/
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--
B!KE: The Peterborough Community Bike Shop 336 Rubidge St, Peterborough ON (705) 775-7227 communitybikeshop.org
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ps re debts, our church (unrelated to store) just adopted a no-loan policy, on the theory (and experience) that if they are broke enough to need a loan now, they will probably be broke enough to have trouble paying it back. So now we say no to loans, yes (when possible and advisable) to gifts, and yes! if we can find a way for people to work it off.
We function this way at troy bike rescue, and it is our main source of income really. There are more of us on this list so maybe they will chime in also.
TBR focuses on this not as a means of hoping to produce more money, but to separate itself from the current capitalistic paradigm while also keeping the lights on. We also serve a very wide variety of people, and I have found the best thing to do is to build relationships with every customer you can. We aren't just fixing bikes, we are setting an example of a potentially gas free and community supported future. We are trying to empower people to understand their means of transportation. Nobody should feel alienated, by gender/orientation/income/whatever the hell else. This includes people feeling alienated or abandoned because this system has forced them out of the capitalist system or for whatever reason they are not able to provide paper money for our servies. They are more than welcome to volunteer as payment, but the idea of "payment" just makes me feel icky.
To get back to my point, every time this topic comes up with a patron I try to express this idea to them, make eye contact, and really talk to somehow. Thats why I am there. I am there for that more than I am there for getting my hands dirty, ya know what I mean? If people cant pay, actually cannot afford the 5 $, why would i ever want to deny them the right to ride their bicycle?
This can get tricky though, especially with children. How do you develop an understanding of respect and "worth" to the work that you do in a capitalist society, while not subscribing to that paradigm. When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free? For instance, we started charging a quarter as a minimum for getting a tire patched. Our doors were FLOODED with kids every single time we were open trying to get tires patched. There was no respect for what we were doing as a group, we were just a free service to them. Was this the best way to do it? I don't know, its a hard topic. But thats what collectives and shops like all of ours are here to do right, test out how things could work in a better world.
just my .02 cents.
ryan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.orgwrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being *more* firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who *can't* pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
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We did the same, "donate what you feel it is worth to you," thing in Utah. Based on a local restaurant called One World Cafe ( http://www.oneworldeverybodyeatsfoundation.org/).
At least for awhile...
At the time my observation was that it felt like we were getting more cash donations than we would have setting a price, this feeling was shared and largely fueled by anecdotal references of amazing cash donations by grateful people for things we would have otherwise given away for free. But at that point we had no point of reference to determine if this was an anecdotal observation or something we could prove in numbers.
Accountability....
After looking into the cost of developing a Point of Sale, we determined that while writing software was cheap it was FAR cheaper to pay someone else to maintain it and so we invested in Quickbooks Point of Sale. At that point we gave up "recommended donations" and started setting actual prices for parts. For example a derailleur in the parts bin is $5, nicer ones are individually priced in a glass case. If someone couldn't pay you can volunteer and log your hours on our volunteer tracking system ( http://volunteer.bicyclecollective.org) to trade out as a credit later. Simple. Consistent. No dickering. Easier on volunteers.
What happened?
Our shop income nearly doubled, and we were able to hire more staff to help more people. As a result the number of bikes we were able to give away more than doubled. Best yet, instead of word smithing suggested donation language, we were able to honestly say "NO" to the IRS when they asked, "did anyone receive anything in return for what you listed as cash donations?" Which means our Cash Donation line item became became pure, and thanks to that separation we were finally were able to determine if our shop was profitable or not. For the record, we still get a good amount of cash donations on top of "part sales."
Would we go back to "donate what you feel it is worth to you?"
No. Having been there done that, it is an excellent stop-gap for collecting funds until a organization has the infrastructure to do it in a more common and expected way. But now that we saw the incredible increase in providing the public with set prices -- it would be hard to think of going back.
Food not Bikes
Going back to the One World Cafe example, everytime I eat there the food is AMAZING, and if I have $20 in my pocket, they get $20, even if I could have received the same quality for $12 elsewhere. But then I don't tend to eat at One World often because I tell myself it is expensive. Instead I frequent other local owned places with inexpensive set prices. Personally I feel like the "donate what you feel it is worth to you?" feeds on an honest person's guilt, and while I LOVE the concept, One World Cafe leaves me uncomfortable and questioning whether I put too little in for hours. While it is good to problem to have to think about the value of my food, and I [again] love the food there and the concept, I question whether it is sustainable. My suspect of One World Cafe is that it would fail miserably if it was next to the homeless shelter instead of being adjacent to a wealthier part of town (avenues) and next door to the Utah College of Massage Therapy. So proximity to lots do-gooders with money is critical.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.bicyclecollective.org
The mission of the Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM, ryan jenkins ryan.t.jenkins@gmail.comwrote:
We function this way at troy bike rescue, and it is our main source of income really. There are more of us on this list so maybe they will chime in also.
TBR focuses on this not as a means of hoping to produce more money, but to separate itself from the current capitalistic paradigm while also keeping the lights on. We also serve a very wide variety of people, and I have found the best thing to do is to build relationships with every customer you can. We aren't just fixing bikes, we are setting an example of a potentially gas free and community supported future. We are trying to empower people to understand their means of transportation. Nobody should feel alienated, by gender/orientation/income/whatever the hell else. This includes people feeling alienated or abandoned because this system has forced them out of the capitalist system or for whatever reason they are not able to provide paper money for our servies. They are more than welcome to volunteer as payment, but the idea of "payment" just makes me feel icky.
To get back to my point, every time this topic comes up with a patron I try to express this idea to them, make eye contact, and really talk to somehow. Thats why I am there. I am there for that more than I am there for getting my hands dirty, ya know what I mean? If people cant pay, actually cannot afford the 5 $, why would i ever want to deny them the right to ride their bicycle?
This can get tricky though, especially with children. How do you develop an understanding of respect and "worth" to the work that you do in a capitalist society, while not subscribing to that paradigm. When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free? For instance, we started charging a quarter as a minimum for getting a tire patched. Our doors were FLOODED with kids every single time we were open trying to get tires patched. There was no respect for what we were doing as a group, we were just a free service to them. Was this the best way to do it? I don't know, its a hard topic. But thats what collectives and shops like all of ours are here to do right, test out how things could work in a better world.
just my .02 cents.
ryan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.orgwrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being *more* firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who *can't* pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
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When re-Cycles began back in '97 we operated out of donated space and functioned only via donations, both bikes and income.
At that time the shop was only a place for buying used bikes and parts, fixed up by volunteers (there was no DIY repair). The problem was that you'd overhaul a nice old touring bike and some smart-ass would offer only $20 for it! It wasn't that we much money at the time, but hey when you spend ten or more hours fixing up a bike $20 seems like a bit on an insult. It's ok for a dept. bike (to this day ours are still only $40 or $50) but not the nicer ones. Ottawa is a reasonably wealthy city, especially downtown, so we do not tend to have customers of really low income beyond students and the odd assistance recipient. So the MEC types would come to us looking for a killer bargain. That started to bother some of us...
Once we had to start paying rent and working within a grant structure things had to change. We got organized, and created a pricing guide, though staff always have flexibility. While we don't offer volunteer time in exchange for parts we do offer vol. time for DIY time.
We've also come to realize that there will always be folks that try and take advantage. We found out one guy was buying our cheap bikes and reselling them, and we get the odd young guy who protests the prices but drives a rather nice car. But most folks understand that even the second-hand shops have to set varying prices for their used goods, and a local Sally Ann store even has an auction section for the good stuff. Either have one price for everything, or accept the vagaries of "what it's worth" and realize some folks will always push for a cheaper price.
Most folks think we are a bargain, especially because a few blocks away is for-profit used bike shop with prices at least double ours (but he somehow always has business). In fact, when someone says "hey that other guy wants double the price" I offer to raise ours to match. ;)
Mark Rehder Coordinator re-Cycles Community Bike Shop http://re-cycles.ca
On 2012-04-13, at 12:33 PM, Jonathan Morrison wrote:
We did the same, "donate what you feel it is worth to you," thing in Utah. Based on a local restaurant called One World Cafe (http://www.oneworldeverybodyeatsfoundation.org/).
At least for awhile...
At the time my observation was that it felt like we were getting more cash donations than we would have setting a price, this feeling was shared and largely fueled by anecdotal references of amazing cash donations by grateful people for things we would have otherwise given away for free. But at that point we had no point of reference to determine if this was an anecdotal observation or something we could prove in numbers.
Accountability....
After looking into the cost of developing a Point of Sale, we determined that while writing software was cheap it was FAR cheaper to pay someone else to maintain it and so we invested in Quickbooks Point of Sale. At that point we gave up "recommended donations" and started setting actual prices for parts. For example a derailleur in the parts bin is $5, nicer ones are individually priced in a glass case. If someone couldn't pay you can volunteer and log your hours on our volunteer tracking system (http://volunteer.bicyclecollective.org) to trade out as a credit later. Simple. Consistent. No dickering. Easier on volunteers.
What happened?
Our shop income nearly doubled, and we were able to hire more staff to help more people. As a result the number of bikes we were able to give away more than doubled. Best yet, instead of word smithing suggested donation language, we were able to honestly say "NO" to the IRS when they asked, "did anyone receive anything in return for what you listed as cash donations?" Which means our Cash Donation line item became became pure, and thanks to that separation we were finally were able to determine if our shop was profitable or not. For the record, we still get a good amount of cash donations on top of "part sales."
Would we go back to "donate what you feel it is worth to you?"
No. Having been there done that, it is an excellent stop-gap for collecting funds until a organization has the infrastructure to do it in a more common and expected way. But now that we saw the incredible increase in providing the public with set prices -- it would be hard to think of going back.
Food not Bikes
Going back to the One World Cafe example, everytime I eat there the food is AMAZING, and if I have $20 in my pocket, they get $20, even if I could have received the same quality for $12 elsewhere. But then I don't tend to eat at One World often because I tell myself it is expensive. Instead I frequent other local owned places with inexpensive set prices. Personally I feel like the "donate what you feel it is worth to you?" feeds on an honest person's guilt, and while I LOVE the concept, One World Cafe leaves me uncomfortable and questioning whether I put too little in for hours. While it is good to problem to have to think about the value of my food, and I [again] love the food there and the concept, I question whether it is sustainable. My suspect of One World Cafe is that it would fail miserably if it was next to the homeless shelter instead of being adjacent to a wealthier part of town (avenues) and next door to the Utah College of Massage Therapy. So proximity to lots do-gooders with money is critical.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.bicyclecollective.org
The mission of the Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM, ryan jenkins ryan.t.jenkins@gmail.com wrote: We function this way at troy bike rescue, and it is our main source of income really. There are more of us on this list so maybe they will chime in also.
TBR focuses on this not as a means of hoping to produce more money, but to separate itself from the current capitalistic paradigm while also keeping the lights on. We also serve a very wide variety of people, and I have found the best thing to do is to build relationships with every customer you can. We aren't just fixing bikes, we are setting an example of a potentially gas free and community supported future. We are trying to empower people to understand their means of transportation. Nobody should feel alienated, by gender/orientation/income/whatever the hell else. This includes people feeling alienated or abandoned because this system has forced them out of the capitalist system or for whatever reason they are not able to provide paper money for our servies. They are more than welcome to volunteer as payment, but the idea of "payment" just makes me feel icky.
To get back to my point, every time this topic comes up with a patron I try to express this idea to them, make eye contact, and really talk to somehow. Thats why I am there. I am there for that more than I am there for getting my hands dirty, ya know what I mean? If people cant pay, actually cannot afford the 5 $, why would i ever want to deny them the right to ride their bicycle?
This can get tricky though, especially with children. How do you develop an understanding of respect and "worth" to the work that you do in a capitalist society, while not subscribing to that paradigm. When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free? For instance, we started charging a quarter as a minimum for getting a tire patched. Our doors were FLOODED with kids every single time we were open trying to get tires patched. There was no respect for what we were doing as a group, we were just a free service to them. Was this the best way to do it? I don't know, its a hard topic. But thats what collectives and shops like all of ours are here to do right, test out how things could work in a better world.
just my .02 cents.
ryan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.org wrote: At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being more firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who can't pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
Bike pirates asks people to pay what they can for everything used. We have specific prices for new parts like tubes and chains.
PWYC brings us money that a designated rate would not. We would lose money if we had a six bucks an hour policy for DIY time. Sliding scale means, rich people pay for poor people, people that can not afford the price of a biek repair will be supported and subsidized by the work space.
Asking for memberships is even worse for the flow of commerce. Allow people to be generous in their donations of money to the space and they will.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Mark Rehder mark@re-cycles.ca wrote:
When re-Cycles began back in '97 we operated out of donated space and functioned only via donations, both bikes and income.
At that time the shop was only a place for buying used bikes and parts, fixed up by volunteers (there was no DIY repair). The problem was that you'd overhaul a nice old touring bike and some smart-ass would offer only $20 for it! It wasn't that we much money at the time, but hey when you spend ten or more hours fixing up a bike $20 seems like a bit on an insult. It's ok for a dept. bike (to this day ours are still only $40 or $50) but not the nicer ones. Ottawa is a reasonably wealthy city, especially downtown, so we do not tend to have customers of really low income beyond students and the odd assistance recipient. So the MEC types would come to us looking for a killer bargain. That started to bother some of us...
Once we had to start paying rent and working within a grant structure things had to change. We got organized, and created a pricing guide, though staff always have flexibility. While we don't offer volunteer time in exchange for parts we do offer vol. time for DIY time.
We've also come to realize that there will always be folks that try and take advantage. We found out one guy was buying our cheap bikes and reselling them, and we get the odd young guy who protests the prices but drives a rather nice car. But most folks understand that even the second-hand shops have to set varying prices for their used goods, and a local Sally Ann store even has an auction section for the good stuff. Either have one price for everything, or accept the vagaries of "what it's worth" and realize some folks will always push for a cheaper price.
Most folks think we are a bargain, especially because a few blocks away is for-profit used bike shop with prices at least double ours (but he somehow always has business). In fact, when someone says "hey that other guy wants double the price" I offer to raise ours to match. ;)
Mark Rehder Coordinator re-Cycles Community Bike Shop http://re-cycles.ca
On 2012-04-13, at 12:33 PM, Jonathan Morrison wrote:
We did the same, "donate what you feel it is worth to you," thing in
Utah. Based on a local restaurant called One World Cafe ( http://www.oneworldeverybodyeatsfoundation.org/).
At least for awhile...
At the time my observation was that it felt like we were getting more
cash donations than we would have setting a price, this feeling was shared and largely fueled by anecdotal references of amazing cash donations by grateful people for things we would have otherwise given away for free. But at that point we had no point of reference to determine if this was an anecdotal observation or something we could prove in numbers.
Accountability....
After looking into the cost of developing a Point of Sale, we determined
that while writing software was cheap it was FAR cheaper to pay someone else to maintain it and so we invested in Quickbooks Point of Sale. At that point we gave up "recommended donations" and started setting actual prices for parts. For example a derailleur in the parts bin is $5, nicer ones are individually priced in a glass case. If someone couldn't pay you can volunteer and log your hours on our volunteer tracking system ( http://volunteer.bicyclecollective.org) to trade out as a credit later. Simple. Consistent. No dickering. Easier on volunteers.
What happened?
Our shop income nearly doubled, and we were able to hire more staff to
help more people. As a result the number of bikes we were able to give away more than doubled. Best yet, instead of word smithing suggested donation language, we were able to honestly say "NO" to the IRS when they asked, "did anyone receive anything in return for what you listed as cash donations?" Which means our Cash Donation line item became became pure, and thanks to that separation we were finally were able to determine if our shop was profitable or not. For the record, we still get a good amount of cash donations on top of "part sales."
Would we go back to "donate what you feel it is worth to you?"
No. Having been there done that, it is an excellent stop-gap for
collecting funds until a organization has the infrastructure to do it in a more common and expected way. But now that we saw the incredible increase in providing the public with set prices -- it would be hard to think of going back.
Food not Bikes
Going back to the One World Cafe example, everytime I eat there the food
is AMAZING, and if I have $20 in my pocket, they get $20, even if I could have received the same quality for $12 elsewhere. But then I don't tend to eat at One World often because I tell myself it is expensive. Instead I frequent other local owned places with inexpensive set prices. Personally I feel like the "donate what you feel it is worth to you?" feeds on an honest person's guilt, and while I LOVE the concept, One World Cafe leaves me uncomfortable and questioning whether I put too little in for hours. While it is good to problem to have to think about the value of my food, and I [again] love the food there and the concept, I question whether it is sustainable. My suspect of One World Cafe is that it would fail miserably if it was next to the homeless shelter instead of being adjacent to a wealthier part of town (avenues) and next door to the Utah College of Massage Therapy. So proximity to lots do-gooders with money is critical.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.bicyclecollective.org
The mission of the Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an
effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM, ryan jenkins ryan.t.jenkins@gmail.com
wrote:
We function this way at troy bike rescue, and it is our main source of
income really. There are more of us on this list so maybe they will chime in also.
TBR focuses on this not as a means of hoping to produce more money, but
to separate itself from the current capitalistic paradigm while also keeping the lights on. We also serve a very wide variety of people, and I have found the best thing to do is to build relationships with every customer you can. We aren't just fixing bikes, we are setting an example of a potentially gas free and community supported future. We are trying to empower people to understand their means of transportation. Nobody should feel alienated, by gender/orientation/income/whatever the hell else. This includes people feeling alienated or abandoned because this system has forced them out of the capitalist system or for whatever reason they are not able to provide paper money for our servies. They are more than welcome to volunteer as payment, but the idea of "payment" just makes me feel icky.
To get back to my point, every time this topic comes up with a patron I
try to express this idea to them, make eye contact, and really talk to somehow. Thats why I am there. I am there for that more than I am there for getting my hands dirty, ya know what I mean? If people cant pay, actually cannot afford the 5 $, why would i ever want to deny them the right to ride their bicycle?
This can get tricky though, especially with children. How do you
develop an understanding of respect and "worth" to the work that you do in a capitalist society, while not subscribing to that paradigm. When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free? For instance, we started charging a quarter as a minimum for getting a tire patched. Our doors were FLOODED with kids every single time we were open trying to get tires patched. There was no respect for what we were doing as a group, we were just a free service to them. Was this the best way to do it? I don't know, its a hard topic. But thats what collectives and shops like all of ours are here to do right, test out how things could work in a better world.
just my .02 cents.
ryan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.org
wrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a
group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12
visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being more firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see
"donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who can't pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our
services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If
so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
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Andrew of Troy Bike Rescue here... agree with all Bike Pirates say below... pay what you can works well for us. we call that 'suggested donation'
i will also offer this pamphlet which has seen play on this list in the past too: http://breathingplanet.net/suggesteddonation
over & out. andrew lynn
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Geoffrey Bercarich < geoff.bercarich@gmail.com> wrote:
Bike pirates asks people to pay what they can for everything used. We have specific prices for new parts like tubes and chains.
PWYC brings us money that a designated rate would not. We would lose money if we had a six bucks an hour policy for DIY time. Sliding scale means, rich people pay for poor people, people that can not afford the price of a biek repair will be supported and subsidized by the work space.
Asking for memberships is even worse for the flow of commerce. Allow people to be generous in their donations of money to the space and they will.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Mark Rehder mark@re-cycles.ca wrote:
When re-Cycles began back in '97 we operated out of donated space and functioned only via donations, both bikes and income.
At that time the shop was only a place for buying used bikes and parts, fixed up by volunteers (there was no DIY repair). The problem was that you'd overhaul a nice old touring bike and some smart-ass would offer only $20 for it! It wasn't that we much money at the time, but hey when you spend ten or more hours fixing up a bike $20 seems like a bit on an insult. It's ok for a dept. bike (to this day ours are still only $40 or $50) but not the nicer ones. Ottawa is a reasonably wealthy city, especially downtown, so we do not tend to have customers of really low income beyond students and the odd assistance recipient. So the MEC types would come to us looking for a killer bargain. That started to bother some of us...
Once we had to start paying rent and working within a grant structure things had to change. We got organized, and created a pricing guide, though staff always have flexibility. While we don't offer volunteer time in exchange for parts we do offer vol. time for DIY time.
We've also come to realize that there will always be folks that try and take advantage. We found out one guy was buying our cheap bikes and reselling them, and we get the odd young guy who protests the prices but drives a rather nice car. But most folks understand that even the second-hand shops have to set varying prices for their used goods, and a local Sally Ann store even has an auction section for the good stuff. Either have one price for everything, or accept the vagaries of "what it's worth" and realize some folks will always push for a cheaper price.
Most folks think we are a bargain, especially because a few blocks away is for-profit used bike shop with prices at least double ours (but he somehow always has business). In fact, when someone says "hey that other guy wants double the price" I offer to raise ours to match. ;)
Mark Rehder Coordinator re-Cycles Community Bike Shop http://re-cycles.ca
On 2012-04-13, at 12:33 PM, Jonathan Morrison wrote:
We did the same, "donate what you feel it is worth to you," thing in
Utah. Based on a local restaurant called One World Cafe ( http://www.oneworldeverybodyeatsfoundation.org/).
At least for awhile...
At the time my observation was that it felt like we were getting more
cash donations than we would have setting a price, this feeling was shared and largely fueled by anecdotal references of amazing cash donations by grateful people for things we would have otherwise given away for free. But at that point we had no point of reference to determine if this was an anecdotal observation or something we could prove in numbers.
Accountability....
After looking into the cost of developing a Point of Sale, we
determined that while writing software was cheap it was FAR cheaper to pay someone else to maintain it and so we invested in Quickbooks Point of Sale. At that point we gave up "recommended donations" and started setting actual prices for parts. For example a derailleur in the parts bin is $5, nicer ones are individually priced in a glass case. If someone couldn't pay you can volunteer and log your hours on our volunteer tracking system ( http://volunteer.bicyclecollective.org) to trade out as a credit later. Simple. Consistent. No dickering. Easier on volunteers.
What happened?
Our shop income nearly doubled, and we were able to hire more staff to
help more people. As a result the number of bikes we were able to give away more than doubled. Best yet, instead of word smithing suggested donation language, we were able to honestly say "NO" to the IRS when they asked, "did anyone receive anything in return for what you listed as cash donations?" Which means our Cash Donation line item became became pure, and thanks to that separation we were finally were able to determine if our shop was profitable or not. For the record, we still get a good amount of cash donations on top of "part sales."
Would we go back to "donate what you feel it is worth to you?"
No. Having been there done that, it is an excellent stop-gap for
collecting funds until a organization has the infrastructure to do it in a more common and expected way. But now that we saw the incredible increase in providing the public with set prices -- it would be hard to think of going back.
Food not Bikes
Going back to the One World Cafe example, everytime I eat there the
food is AMAZING, and if I have $20 in my pocket, they get $20, even if I could have received the same quality for $12 elsewhere. But then I don't tend to eat at One World often because I tell myself it is expensive. Instead I frequent other local owned places with inexpensive set prices. Personally I feel like the "donate what you feel it is worth to you?" feeds on an honest person's guilt, and while I LOVE the concept, One World Cafe leaves me uncomfortable and questioning whether I put too little in for hours. While it is good to problem to have to think about the value of my food, and I [again] love the food there and the concept, I question whether it is sustainable. My suspect of One World Cafe is that it would fail miserably if it was next to the homeless shelter instead of being adjacent to a wealthier part of town (avenues) and next door to the Utah College of Massage Therapy. So proximity to lots do-gooders with money is critical.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.bicyclecollective.org
The mission of the Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an
effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM, ryan jenkins ryan.t.jenkins@gmail.com
wrote:
We function this way at troy bike rescue, and it is our main source of
income really. There are more of us on this list so maybe they will chime in also.
TBR focuses on this not as a means of hoping to produce more money, but
to separate itself from the current capitalistic paradigm while also keeping the lights on. We also serve a very wide variety of people, and I have found the best thing to do is to build relationships with every customer you can. We aren't just fixing bikes, we are setting an example of a potentially gas free and community supported future. We are trying to empower people to understand their means of transportation. Nobody should feel alienated, by gender/orientation/income/whatever the hell else. This includes people feeling alienated or abandoned because this system has forced them out of the capitalist system or for whatever reason they are not able to provide paper money for our servies. They are more than welcome to volunteer as payment, but the idea of "payment" just makes me feel icky.
To get back to my point, every time this topic comes up with a patron I
try to express this idea to them, make eye contact, and really talk to somehow. Thats why I am there. I am there for that more than I am there for getting my hands dirty, ya know what I mean? If people cant pay, actually cannot afford the 5 $, why would i ever want to deny them the right to ride their bicycle?
This can get tricky though, especially with children. How do you
develop an understanding of respect and "worth" to the work that you do in a capitalist society, while not subscribing to that paradigm. When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free? For instance, we started charging a quarter as a minimum for getting a tire patched. Our doors were FLOODED with kids every single time we were open trying to get tires patched. There was no respect for what we were doing as a group, we were just a free service to them. Was this the best way to do it? I don't know, its a hard topic. But thats what collectives and shops like all of ours are here to do right, test out how things could work in a better world.
just my .02 cents.
ryan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.org
wrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a
group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12
visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being more firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see
"donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who can't pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our
services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If
so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
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At the bike church is Santa Cruz we ask "$5/ hour, no one turned away for lack of funds" and further: "if you are unable to pay for our services, please check in with a mechanic to make other arrangements before you start"
By other arrangements, we mean volunteer work-trade and tasks are usually easily found. In case the shop is too busy to handle more work trade or other barriers to worktrade, we leave these decisions as to whether to engage worktrade etc up to the mechanic on shift.
We have a sign up listing common used-parts price ranges to help keep mechanics on the same page, but in the end the price and value of services is up to the mechanic.
josh
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.org wrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being *more* firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who *can't* pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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Like Bike Church, we offer work trade at MoBo. We ask all users become coop members and pay a 20$ flat fee and if they use new parts, we have a suggested donation price. If a member can't pay, we offer an alternative of 4 volunteer hours for membership or for parts, an hour. We won't turn away anyone who cannot pay and often make "pay next time you are in agreements." This does show through our database that generally only a third of all people who fill out a form pay fees or give hours.
We have a coordinator at the front desk who is aware of the policy and exchange rate. We also hang suggested donation prices up in the main shop room and tool room. Whenever someone becomes a member, we fill out a card for them for our Rolodex to check if their membership fees or hours are up to date. If we do think that an individual is abusing the policy--using the tools and shop several times in the row without paying or volunteering-- we will ask them to volunteer before they can use the tools. We are hoping this card system will help in showing the value of the shop and mechanic experience because we do use the fees to pay our utilities bills and buy more tools and consumables.
Ellie Nava-Jones MoBo bike Coop
On Friday, April 13, 2012, Joshua Muir wrote:
At the bike church is Santa Cruz we ask "$5/ hour, no one turned away for lack of funds" and further: "if you are unable to pay for our services, please check in with a mechanic to make other arrangements before you start"
By other arrangements, we mean volunteer work-trade and tasks are usually easily found. In case the shop is too busy to handle more work trade or other barriers to worktrade, we leave these decisions as to whether to engage worktrade etc up to the mechanic on shift.
We have a sign up listing common used-parts price ranges to help keep mechanics on the same page, but in the end the price and value of services is up to the mechanic.
josh
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Paul Nagel <paul@thebicycletree.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'paul@thebicycletree.org');>
wrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being *more* firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who *can't* pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org');> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org');> To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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-- Joshua Muir muirjoshua@gmail.com <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'muirjoshua@gmail.com');>
Frances Cycles -- www.francescycles.com Handbuilt cycling framesets Touring, Track, Road,Cross, and Cargo (831) 469-3369
The Bicycle Church Collective http://bikechurch.santacruzhub.org/ Community Self-Service Cycle Repair 3pm to 7pm everyday except Sunday 703 Pacific Ave (enter on Spruce St) Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (831) 425-2453
To chime in here in response to Ryan,
We are in the midst of our second summer of hosting a Youth Shop (10-15yr olds) once a week at Troy Bike Rescue. It is a sticky situation we are in in asking for donations of "whatever they can give for what its worth to them" on other open shop nights, but not being able to employ that with the children in our extremely impoverished neighborhood.
I always find that the kids are baffled to hear that we don't get paid to do what we do, and yet, its still difficult not to get taken advantage of by them as far as theft and respect goes. How do you, as a shop, retain giving free services to youth while still feeing like its worth something more to them than "a place with free bikes?"
I guess I am just reiterating Ryan's point: "When worth of a skill or favor is based off of an hourly rate, how do we instill respect for what we are doing while also letting people get work done for free?" But it is a constant topic of concern in conversation at TBR among volunteers and I am glad to read other shop's takes on this complicated subject!
Erica
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:31 PM, MoBo Bicycle Co-op < mobobicyclecoop@gmail.com> wrote:
Like Bike Church, we offer work trade at MoBo. We ask all users become coop members and pay a 20$ flat fee and if they use new parts, we have a suggested donation price. If a member can't pay, we offer an alternative of 4 volunteer hours for membership or for parts, an hour. We won't turn away anyone who cannot pay and often make "pay next time you are in agreements." This does show through our database that generally only a third of all people who fill out a form pay fees or give hours.
We have a coordinator at the front desk who is aware of the policy and exchange rate. We also hang suggested donation prices up in the main shop room and tool room. Whenever someone becomes a member, we fill out a card for them for our Rolodex to check if their membership fees or hours are up to date. If we do think that an individual is abusing the policy--using the tools and shop several times in the row without paying or volunteering-- we will ask them to volunteer before they can use the tools. We are hoping this card system will help in showing the value of the shop and mechanic experience because we do use the fees to pay our utilities bills and buy more tools and consumables.
Ellie Nava-Jones MoBo bike Coop
On Friday, April 13, 2012, Joshua Muir wrote:
At the bike church is Santa Cruz we ask "$5/ hour, no one turned away for lack of funds" and further: "if you are unable to pay for our services, please check in with a mechanic to make other arrangements before you start"
By other arrangements, we mean volunteer work-trade and tasks are usually easily found. In case the shop is too busy to handle more work trade or other barriers to worktrade, we leave these decisions as to whether to engage worktrade etc up to the mechanic on shift.
We have a sign up listing common used-parts price ranges to help keep mechanics on the same page, but in the end the price and value of services is up to the mechanic.
josh
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Paul Nagel paul@thebicycletree.orgwrote:
At our volunteer meeting last night, someone shared an anecdote where a group offering to pump up people's bike tires raised far more money when they asked only that people pay what they thought the service was worth, rather than asking for $1 per pumping (this was something he heard in a business class of some sort). This volunteer went on to suggest we not post our current $5 suggested donation per hour for DIY repair, but rather use language along the lines of "donate what you think the service is worth".
This is in a context where, even on a busier day, with about 12 visitors, we usually receive less than $60, even though many of those people will stay for two hours or more. Also, being *more* firm about payment is not of interest to us.
As with most of you, we serve a wide variety of people. I can see "donate what you think the service is worth" being fine for people of even modest income, but I'm concerned about how that concept can be communicated without causing bad feelings in people who *can't* pay what they think the service is worth.
In the past, when we were just getting started, we advertised our services as being "free", but accepted donations. That is somewhat different from the idea presented here, as "free" implies people need not/ought not to pay.
Does anyone here have experience with having no suggested donation? If so, have you utilized both methods in a similar context, and how did the income compare? Also, how did you word your pricing policy?
Thank you,
Paul
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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-- Joshua Muir muirjoshua@gmail.com
Frances Cycles -- www.francescycles.com Handbuilt cycling framesets Touring, Track, Road,Cross, and Cargo (831) 469-3369
The Bicycle Church Collective http://bikechurch.santacruzhub.org/ Community Self-Service Cycle Repair 3pm to 7pm everyday except Sunday 703 Pacific Ave (enter on Spruce St) Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (831) 425-2453
-- MoBo Bicycle Cooperative a project of The Village Green Foundation 1415 Knowlton St. Cincinnati, OH www.mobobicyclecoop.org
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