Re: [TheThinkTank] Vocational Schools
Hi Christopher I am interested in this conversation but couldn't participate at this time since I have a few more days of a leave and will be swamped with other priorities when I return on 2/1. Take care Andy Greif
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 1:24 PM, christopher@holisticcycles.com wrote:
I have been teaching Bicycle related subjects for 30+ years as a professional assembly trainer, Certified Master Tech/ trainer for national chain of bike shops, Teacher of Bicycle Vocation Education programs in profit and non for profit schools, and a class room teacher LD/BD using the bicycle as engagement focus for all academic subjects. I was taught through the original Schwinn mechanics school, Certified by Barnett's as a Master Technician, Certified assembler and mechanics trainer for HSF, and one of the founding members of Youth Bicycle Education Network, Bikes for Chicago, retired Director of Blackstone Bicycle Works, St Louis Bicycle Works, Bicycle Action Project, plus worked for many shops in my spare time. I am now writing material for professional shop training.
My two cents are: A highly trained mechanic that is not efficient, organized, fast, is going to find it hard to get employed year round or make the bicycle industry into a career. Vocational Education Programs need to include methods that make the students work both high quality and lightning fast. There also needs to be practice with accountability paperwork.
I achieved this quality, efficiency balance using many different methods. The one factor I focused on was "FUN"
Would you two or other on the list like to start a conversation about Vocation Education? Getting kids and adults into a good job?
Christopher Wallace Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
Darryl, Ryan kragerud, prez of Bicycle Longmont, co. We're contemplating a partnership with a high school or our vocational school to start a bike maintenance/repair apprentice program. Do you have some info you could shoot me?
Ryan kragerud, President Bicycle Longmont Www.bicyclelongmont.org Www.gknightride.org
On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Darryl Fuller darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com wrote: I run a bike shop at the independent co-ed High school I work at here in Western Colorado. We teach Bike Shop as part of our Work Program. We repair the school communities bikes and refurbish donated bicycles.
Thanks,
Darryl Fuller
Colorado Rocky Mountain School Bike Shop 1493 County Road 106 Carbondale, CO 81623 www.crms.org _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
I would like to be in this conversation as well. I agree that the concentration needs to be on generic working skills, and less on specific bicycle mechanics.
The sad reality is that most bike shops pay very little to their mechanics, and while I have heard every shop owner complain about a "qualified labor shortage" what they are really saying is a "qualified labor that is willing to work for peanuts." There are plenty of fast and efficient mechanics out there, but those traits landed them better higher paying jobs. Until shop owners are willing to put an accurate value on their mechanics' wages, I only see bicycle mechanics being a career for a select few. And so it remains the accepted high school, summer or college job -- but not a career.
UBI is an official vocational rehab program, but again they concentrate on mechanics. Which means they train people for jobs that don't exist. Most shop owners (at least locally) seem to regard the UBI and Barnett programs as something that has a 100% acceptance and graduation rate. Aka, you got the money? You got the diploma! Whereas a good school/college/training should weed out the crap in a sector and only graduate valuable employees. The harder the program is to get into, and the easier it is to flunk out is one major thing that makes good schools -- good schools.
So a solely 100% mechanics program is for the home mechanic, not a shop employee.
However most shop owners also suffer from a lack of business experience. They were just a mechanic and they opened or inherited a shop in one of the few industries they knew. It would seem to me the ideal shop employee would not only fill in the mechanical gaps, but the technology, marketing/media, sales, and business analysis gaps. Which means they need to be entrepreneurs at heart. And when winter comes and the shop owner looks at the strengths of the bicycle mechanics, they aren't looking at just efficient mechanics -- they are looking for the best employee for any job.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
On Jan 25, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Hi Christopher I am interested in this conversation but couldn't participate at this time since I have a few more days of a leave and will be swamped with other priorities when I return on 2/1. Take care Andy Greif
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 1:24 PM, christopher@holisticcycles.com wrote:
I have been teaching Bicycle related subjects for 30+ years as a professional assembly trainer, Certified Master Tech/ trainer for national chain of bike shops, Teacher of Bicycle Vocation Education programs in profit and non for profit schools, and a class room teacher LD/BD using the bicycle as engagement focus for all academic subjects. I was taught through the original Schwinn mechanics school, Certified by Barnett's as a Master Technician, Certified assembler and mechanics trainer for HSF, and one of the founding members of Youth Bicycle Education Network, Bikes for Chicago, retired Director of Blackstone Bicycle Works, St Louis Bicycle Works, Bicycle Action Project, plus worked for many shops in my spare time. I am now writing material for professional shop training.
My two cents are: A highly trained mechanic that is not efficient, organized, fast, is going to find it hard to get employed year round or make the bicycle industry into a career. Vocational Education Programs need to include methods that make the students work both high quality and lightning fast. There also needs to be practice with accountability paperwork.
I achieved this quality, efficiency balance using many different methods. The one factor I focused on was "FUN"
Would you two or other on the list like to start a conversation about Vocation Education? Getting kids and adults into a good job?
Christopher Wallace Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
Darryl, Ryan kragerud, prez of Bicycle Longmont, co. We're contemplating a partnership with a high school or our vocational school to start a bike maintenance/repair apprentice program. Do you have some info you could shoot me?
Ryan kragerud, President Bicycle Longmont Www.bicyclelongmont.org Www.gknightride.org
On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Darryl Fuller darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com wrote: I run a bike shop at the independent co-ed High school I work at here in Western Colorado. We teach Bike Shop as part of our Work Program. We repair the school communities bikes and refurbish donated bicycles.
Thanks,
Darryl Fuller
Colorado Rocky Mountain School Bike Shop 1493 County Road 106 Carbondale, CO 81623 www.crms.org _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
When I worked for bike shops a build time for a new assembly ranged from up to 2 hours, to down to 45 minutes. When I was a trainer for a national assembly corporation the build time for the same bike was between 18 and 12 minutes. When you say "There are plenty of fast and efficient mechanics out there" I would have to disagree. A mechanic that is building a bike in 45 minutes is not making a shop profitable. (that is a whole discussion about costs of labor making bike sales into a net loss for the owner) Training a mechanic to be as efficient as a national assembler, and add quality to that build, is where I am focused on in my professional education program. No short cuts, Bikes that are on the show room floor and do not need a 15 minute touch up to be test ridden (another cost) Rapid high quality builds (RHQB). Once a RHQB is achieved then a conversation on living wages, competitive wages, career path, raising a family. Currently Mechanic D is faster than mechanic F and both mechanics are so slow that they reduce instead of increase the profits of the store.During the height of build season, I have made service areas profitable when the rest of the national chain's service areas were not. This means the time we spend on builds did not negatively dig into profits even during the slow start to the bicycle repair season. As a team we reduced the amount of readjustment by 80 % from the previous year, also reducing costs. Speed and Quality.
I was able to successfully approach management and ask for more year round staff hours.
The program adds the efficiency from one industry, to the quality in another industry, to the accountability of a third industry and creates profits where there were losses in service centers.
What self taught or mechanic from UBI or BBI can positively change the economics of the service area team?
I can.
The bigger question is: Are you ready to stir up long held beliefs, learn to add concepts together, become well rounded, and grow in any business?
I agree with Jonathan that many job work skills are missing in currently available bicycle education. Greatly needed skills in written, oral and professional communication, understanding and applying physics, history, math, language arts, fine arts, business planning, economics, sales, hiring, and hundreds of other areas that make a person well rounded in any business. Our students are excited about bike and willing to learn anything, our training should have a focus and work to help our student become a highly paid individual working in any industry including the bicycle industry. The bicycle should be used as a starting point for engaged learning. Students are excited to learn, time to teach and keep it FUN.
PS I also want our students to be life time cyclist, invested in cycling as a healthy part of their life. Socially, economicly, environmentally, health wise, resource wise, etc.
Christopher Wallace
Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Morrison jonathan.morrison@gmail.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: darryl.f.fuller darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com; christopher christopher@holisticcycles.com; rjkragerud rjkragerud@gmail.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 5:01 am Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Vocational Schools
I would like to be in this conversation as well. I agree that the concentration needs to be on generic working skills, and less on specific bicycle mechanics.
The sad reality is that most bike shops pay very little to their mechanics, and while I have heard every shop owner complain about a "qualified labor shortage" what they are really saying is a "qualified labor that is willing to work for peanuts." There are plenty of fast and efficient mechanics out there, but those traits landed them better higher paying jobs. Until shop owners are willing to put an accurate value on their mechanics' wages, I only see bicycle mechanics being a career for a select few. And so it remains the accepted high school, summer or college job -- but not a career.
UBI is an official vocational rehab program, but again they concentrate on mechanics. Which means they train people for jobs that don't exist. Most shop owners (at least locally) seem to regard the UBI and Barnett programs as something that has a 100% acceptance and graduation rate. Aka, you got the money? You got the diploma! Whereas a good school/college/training should weed out the crap in a sector and only graduate valuable employees. The harder the program is to get into, and the easier it is to flunk out is one major thing that makes good schools -- good schools.
So a solely 100% mechanics program is for the home mechanic, not a shop employee.
However most shop owners also suffer from a lack of business experience. They were just a mechanic and they opened or inherited a shop in one of the few industries they knew. It would seem to me the ideal shop employee would not only fill in the mechanical gaps, but the technology, marketing/media, sales, and business analysis gaps. Which means they need to be entrepreneurs at heart. And when winter comes and the shop owner looks at the strengths of the bicycle mechanics, they aren't looking at just efficient mechanics -- they are looking for the best employee for any job.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
On Jan 25, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Hi Christopher I am interested in this conversation but couldn't participate at this time since I have a few more days of a leave and will be swamped with other priorities when I return on 2/1. Take care Andy Greif
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 1:24 PM, christopher@holisticcycles.com wrote:
I have been teaching Bicycle related subjects for 30+ years as a professional assembly trainer, Certified Master Tech/ trainer for national chain of bike shops, Teacher of Bicycle Vocation Education programs in profit and non for profit schools, and a class room teacher LD/BD using the bicycle as engagement focus for all academic subjects. I was taught through the original Schwinn mechanics school, Certified by Barnett's as a Master Technician, Certified assembler and mechanics trainer for HSF, and one of the founding members of Youth Bicycle Education Network, Bikes for Chicago, retired Director of Blackstone Bicycle Works, St Louis Bicycle Works, Bicycle Action Project, plus worked for many shops in my spare time. I am now writing material for professional shop training.
My two cents are: A highly trained mechanic that is not efficient, organized, fast, is going to find it hard to get employed year round or make the bicycle industry into a career. Vocational Education Programs need to include methods that make the students work both high quality and lightning fast. There also needs to be practice with accountability paperwork.
I achieved this quality, efficiency balance using many different methods. The one factor I focused on was "FUN"
Would you two or other on the list like to start a conversation about Vocation Education? Getting kids and adults into a good job?
Christopher Wallace
Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
Darryl,
Ryan kragerud, prez of Bicycle Longmont, co. We're contemplating a partnership with a high school or our vocational school to start a bike maintenance/repair apprentice program. Do you have some info you could shoot me?
Ryan kragerud, President Bicycle Longmont Www.bicyclelongmont.org Www.gknightride.org
On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Darryl Fuller darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com wrote: I run a bike shop at the independent co-ed High school I work at here in Western Colorado. We teach Bike Shop as part of our Work Program. We repair the school communities bikes and refurbish donated bicycles.
Thanks,
Darryl Fuller
Colorado Rocky Mountain School Bike Shop 1493 County Road 106 Carbondale, CO 81623 www.crms.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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Not sure how this turned into a public conversation, but again...
Everything is relative, if you create an army of "fast and efficient" mechanics that expect "living wages, competitive wages, career path, raising a family" and they apply to your average bike shop that holds those "long held beliefs" at the same time as a kid out of high school willing to work for minimum wage.
Who will get the job? Think pimples.
Since you pay for what you get, I agree with you 100% on what the "logical" choice would be. HOWEVER, I would put money down that most shop owners "actual" choice would be cheap labor. Which I would cite as a lack of business skills / training on behalf of the shop owners. Most of them don't have formal training and are figuring it out as they go.
Again, everything is relative, and there are always rare exceptions. We can cite those anecdotal exceptions all day long, but there is not any validated statistical data to argue either way. At least to my knowledge.
In my mind the real problem is not a lack of "fast and efficient" mechanics, but a lack of DEMAND for "fast and efficient" mechanics at livable wages. In order to create that demand, an organization like the National Bike Dealer Association (NBDA) needs to offer a business school for shop owners and managers, think a boot camp executive MBA program. If they can make their BUSINESS "fast and efficient" then there will be a demand for the mechanics you speak of.
This is part of a larger issue that needs to be attacked from the top down. That being said, I would love to attend your efficiency school. Where do I sign up?
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
The mission of the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Bicycle Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:55 PM, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
When I worked for bike shops a build time for a new assembly ranged from up to 2 hours, to down to 45 minutes. When I was a trainer for a national assembly corporation the build time for the same bike was between 18 and 12 minutes. When you say "There are plenty of fast and efficient mechanics out there" I would have to disagree. A mechanic that is building a bike in 45 minutes is not making a shop profitable. (that is a whole discussion about costs of labor making bike sales into a net loss for the owner) Training a mechanic to be as efficient as a national assembler, and add quality to that build, is where I am focused on in my professional education program. No short cuts, Bikes that are on the show room floor and do not need a 15 minute touch up to be test ridden (another cost) Rapid high quality builds (RHQB). Once a RHQB is achieved then a conversation on living wages, competitive wages, career path, raising a family. Currently Mechanic D is faster than mechanic F and both mechanics are so slow that they reduce instead of increase the profits of the store.During the height of build season, I have made service areas profitable when the rest of the national chain's service areas were not. This means the time we spend on builds did not negatively dig into profits even during the slow start to the bicycle repair season. As a team we reduced the amount of readjustment by 80 % from the previous year, also reducing costs. Speed and Quality.
I was able to successfully approach management and ask for more year round staff hours.
The program adds the efficiency from one industry, to the quality in another industry, to the accountability of a third industry and creates profits where there were losses in service centers.
What self taught or mechanic from UBI or BBI can positively change the economics of the service area team?
I can.
The bigger question is: Are you ready to stir up long held beliefs, learn to add concepts together, become well rounded, and grow in any business?
I agree with Jonathan that many job work skills are missing in currently available bicycle education. Greatly needed skills in written, oral and professional communication, understanding and applying physics, history, math, language arts, fine arts, business planning, economics, sales, hiring, and hundreds of other areas that make a person well rounded in any business. Our students are excited about bike and willing to learn anything, our training should have a focus and work to help our student become a highly paid individual working in any industry including the bicycle industry. The bicycle should be used as a starting point for engaged learning. Students are excited to learn, time to teach and keep it FUN.
PS I also want our students to be life time cyclist, invested in cycling as a healthy part of their life. Socially, economicly, environmentally, health wise, resource wise, etc.
Christopher Wallace Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Morrison jonathan.morrison@gmail.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: darryl.f.fuller darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com; christopher < christopher@holisticcycles.com>; rjkragerud rjkragerud@gmail.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 5:01 am Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Vocational Schools
I would like to be in this conversation as well. I agree that the concentration needs to be on generic working skills, and less on specific bicycle mechanics.
The sad reality is that most bike shops pay very little to their mechanics, and while I have heard every shop owner complain about a "qualified labor shortage" what they are really saying is a "qualified labor that is willing to work for peanuts." There are plenty of fast and efficient mechanics out there, but those traits landed them better higher paying jobs. Until shop owners are willing to put an accurate value on their mechanics' wages, I only see bicycle mechanics being a career for a select few. And so it remains the accepted high school, summer or college job -- but not a career.
UBI is an official vocational rehab program, but again they concentrate on mechanics. Which means they train people for jobs that don't exist. Most shop owners (at least locally) seem to regard the UBI and Barnett programs as something that has a 100% acceptance and graduation rate. Aka, you got the money? You got the diploma! Whereas a good school/college/training should weed out the crap in a sector and only graduate valuable employees. The harder the program is to get into, and the easier it is to flunk out is one major thing that makes good schools -- good schools.
So a solely 100% mechanics program is for the home mechanic, not a shop employee.
However most shop owners also suffer from a lack of business experience. They were just a mechanic and they opened or inherited a shop in one of the few industries they knew. It would seem to me the ideal shop employee would not only fill in the mechanical gaps, but the technology, marketing/media, sales, and business analysis gaps. Which means they need to be entrepreneurs at heart. And when winter comes and the shop owner looks at the strengths of the bicycle mechanics, they aren't looking at just efficient mechanics -- they are looking for the best employee for any job.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
On Jan 25, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Hi Christopher I am interested in this conversation but couldn't participate at this time since I have a few more days of a leave and will be swamped with other priorities when I return on 2/1. Take care Andy Greif
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 1:24 PM, christopher@holisticcycles.com wrote:
I have been teaching Bicycle related subjects for 30+ years as a professional assembly trainer, Certified Master Tech/ trainer for national chain of bike shops, Teacher of Bicycle Vocation Education programs in profit and non for profit schools, and a class room teacher LD/BD using the bicycle as engagement focus for all academic subjects. I was taught through the original Schwinn mechanics school, Certified by Barnett's as a Master Technician, Certified assembler and mechanics trainer for HSF, and one of the founding members of Youth Bicycle Education Network, Bikes for Chicago, retired Director of Blackstone Bicycle Works, St Louis Bicycle Works, Bicycle Action Project, plus worked for many shops in my spare time. I am now writing material for professional shop training.
My two cents are: A highly trained mechanic that is not efficient, organized, fast, is going to find it hard to get employed year round or make the bicycle industry into a career. Vocational Education Programs need to include methods that make the students work both high quality and lightning fast. There also needs to be practice with accountability paperwork.
I achieved this quality, efficiency balance using many different methods. The one factor I focused on was "FUN"
Would you two or other on the list like to start a conversation about Vocation Education? Getting kids and adults into a good job?
Christopher Wallace Professional Bicycle Mechanic Trainer
Darryl, Ryan kragerud, prez of Bicycle Longmont, co. We're contemplating a partnership with a high school or our vocational school to start a bike maintenance/repair apprentice program. Do you have some info you could shoot me?
Ryan kragerud, President Bicycle Longmont http://Www.bicyclelongmont.orgWww.bicyclelongmont.org http://Www.gknightride.orgWww.gknightride.org
On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Darryl Fuller < darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com darryl.f.fuller@gmail.com> wrote: I run a bike shop at the independent co-ed High school I work at here in Western Colorado. We teach Bike Shop as part of our Work Program. We repair the school communities bikes and refurbish donated bicycles.
Thanks,
Darryl Fuller
Colorado Rocky Mountain School Bike Shop 1493 County Road 106 Carbondale, CO 81623 http://www.crms.orgwww.crms.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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participants (5)
-
Andy Greif -
bovineoaks＠aol.com -
christopher＠holisticcycles.com -
Jonathan Morrison -
Jonathan Morrison