Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine
We have had the same discussion, and took Working Bikes's approach to do repairs (which we have been taking in since the pandemic swamped our LBS's) or help shop users work on their own, but only for maintenance or repairs to the standard parts and not the electric components (e.g. flats repaired on the non-drive wheel only).
For us this is now also partly complicated by our insurance having added a question about Ebikes (which we have answered no to) so will be having a conversation with our agent, especially since we took a donation of a like-new Ebike before our insurance renewal!
This seems like a great topic for a Discord thread or an article on the wiki: Ebikes are not a fad, it seems. Jim
Jim Sheehan Executive Director Ohio City Bicycle Co-op 1840 Columbus Rd Cleveland, Ohio 44113 216 830 2667 OhioCityCycles.org jim@ohiocitycycles.org
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 7:59 AM Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
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Hello Andy and everybody, As someone retired, I use my mechanical bike daily, and when I have more than I can handle especially more than one long uphill destination the same day, I am happy to have that backup of an e-bike available.Not a problem with the bike workshop I attend (Gepetto et Vélo) where I also aquired my two bicycles. Nice to read you all out there again ! The situation is pretty much similar here...few resort to emails since the confinements on the Vélorution list. brises cyclistes,
Claire Grover+33 (0)6 26 60 07 38Vélorution Paris
Le vendredi 10 février 2023 à 14:00:07 UTC+1, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank <thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> a écrit :
Hi -- How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies. Thanks -- Andy Ballentine____________________________________
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At Bike Farm in Portland, OR we do not take any donations of E-Bikes as only a few volunteers (we are all volunteer run) know how to work on them and we do not want to take on the liability. People are welcome to bring their e-bikes in for help with the mechanical components though. We have had bike shops offer us partially built or fully complete e-bikes recently and have turned them away. Gabriel (he/him)
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 6:30 AM claire grover via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hello Andy and everybody,
As someone retired, I use my mechanical bike daily, and when I have more than I can handle especially more than one long uphill destination the same day, I am happy to have that backup of an e-bike available. Not a problem with the bike workshop I attend (Gepetto et Vélo) where I also aquired my two bicycles. Nice to read you all out there again !
The situation is pretty much similar here...few resort to emails since the confinements on the Vélorution list.
brises cyclistes,
Claire Grover *+33 (0)6 26 60 07 38* Vélorution Paris
Le vendredi 10 février 2023 à 14:00:07 UTC+1, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org a écrit :
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
Unsubscribe from this list here: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/options.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.or...
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On two occasions, the Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign Illinois voted and banned all gas and electronic bikes. They are not allowed in our shops.
There are several reasons for this.
- Insurance
- Lack of knowledge of our volunteer mechanics in regard to these types of
bikes. 3. Wear and tear on our stands as they tend to be heavier than analog bikes 4. Too many different standards of ebikes make it difficult to be knowledgeable about all systems. 5. Risk of fire. 6. Since we serve both a large University and surrounding towns, the e-bike projects that folks tend to try are the cheapest DIY kits and batteries shipped from Asia. It is just not worth the liability. I have seen some really dodgy stuff over the years.
The final straw is that we are located in a basement of an old converted post office. While there are some avenues of escape that keep the fire marshall at bay, the combination of a dodgy battery and the various lubricants used over the years is a risk we really don't want to take right now.
Todd Spinner The Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 8:30 AM claire grover via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hello Andy and everybody,
As someone retired, I use my mechanical bike daily, and when I have more than I can handle especially more than one long uphill destination the same day, I am happy to have that backup of an e-bike available. Not a problem with the bike workshop I attend (Gepetto et Vélo) where I also aquired my two bicycles. Nice to read you all out there again !
The situation is pretty much similar here...few resort to emails since the confinements on the Vélorution list.
brises cyclistes,
Claire Grover *+33 (0)6 26 60 07 38* Vélorution Paris
Le vendredi 10 février 2023 à 14:00:07 UTC+1, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org a écrit :
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
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Hola Everyone!
My name is Xail Hernandez, I am the Community Bike Repair Manager at Working Bikes and manage the Service Department here. We do not service e-bikes here either for the same reasons that Bike Project of Urbana -Champaign provided. We have made really few exceptions when the e-bike has a mid-drive but those tend to be more expensive and our community here does not have access to them. We have gotten e-bike donations that sit around the warehouse for a long time until we find people and/or organizations we can give with the understanding that e-bikes are as is.
I do appreciate this conversation. I think it is just a matter of time for us to start adapting our set up for e-bikes and provide educational resources so people learn more about e-bikes before spending so much money on cheap, unsafe conversion kits.
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 9:28 AM Todd Spinner via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
On two occasions, the Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign Illinois voted and banned all gas and electronic bikes. They are not allowed in our shops.
There are several reasons for this.
- Insurance
- Lack of knowledge of our volunteer mechanics in regard to these types
of bikes. 3. Wear and tear on our stands as they tend to be heavier than analog bikes 4. Too many different standards of ebikes make it difficult to be knowledgeable about all systems. 5. Risk of fire. 6. Since we serve both a large University and surrounding towns, the e-bike projects that folks tend to try are the cheapest DIY kits and batteries shipped from Asia. It is just not worth the liability. I have seen some really dodgy stuff over the years.
The final straw is that we are located in a basement of an old converted post office. While there are some avenues of escape that keep the fire marshall at bay, the combination of a dodgy battery and the various lubricants used over the years is a risk we really don't want to take right now.
Todd Spinner The Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 8:30 AM claire grover via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hello Andy and everybody,
As someone retired, I use my mechanical bike daily, and when I have more than I can handle especially more than one long uphill destination the same day, I am happy to have that backup of an e-bike available. Not a problem with the bike workshop I attend (Gepetto et Vélo) where I also aquired my two bicycles. Nice to read you all out there again !
The situation is pretty much similar here...few resort to emails since the confinements on the Vélorution list.
brises cyclistes,
Claire Grover *+33 (0)6 26 60 07 38* Vélorution Paris
Le vendredi 10 février 2023 à 14:00:07 UTC+1, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org a écrit :
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
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-- Todd Spinner
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When we got ebikes, mostly it was just parts; we never really got fully functional bikes. But we had preemptively begun processing these parts as though they might someday be put into use in the same way any other parts would. Mostly, we just got a lot of these huge outdated pancake motors without any battery or controller. We drew the line at combustion engine parts; mostly that was my decision, because I felt that such drive systems were bad for the environment, and also in our area gasbike conversions were definitely illegal on public roads.
Aside from insurance and legal, I think the real issue here is that electronics isn't mechanics, and therefore is not any part of most mechanics' skillset. For just about every mechanic, it has to be treated as an entirely new skill, and that takes time (and in our community, a critical mass of agreement) to develop.
In our community these new skills would be developed in a special, and I think really critical way. I tend to agree with Xail, that it's only a matter of time before our parts rooms, pending insurance/legal rulings, have sections related to e-components, and our mechanics have insight into them.
We as a community continue to try and marginalize automobile transport in our lives as much as possible, and ebikes can contribute to that in places where ebikes have more or less the same legal status as bicycles.
Tacking on to what Claire said, they're just necessary for certain tasks if you're trying to keep cars out of your personal scheme. I moved to the top of a steep hill about a year ago, and my work has been in the valley. Eventually I decided to use an ebike for for my daily commute, which in almost every case includes a grocery run. Before I made that decision, I just couldn't eat enough calories for my daily haul, and I was constantly at a loss for energy even on my days off. 20+ lbs uphill every day!
~cyclista Nicholas
On 2023-02-10 19:30, Xail Hernandez via Thethinktank wrote:
Hola Everyone!
My name is Xail Hernandez, I am the Community Bike Repair Manager at Working Bikes and manage the Service Department here. We do not service e-bikes here either for the same reasons that Bike Project of Urbana -Champaign provided. We have made really few exceptions when the e-bike has a mid-drive but those tend to be more expensive and our community here does not have access to them. We have gotten e-bike donations that sit around the warehouse for a long time until we find people and/or organizations we can give with the understanding that e-bikes are as is.
I do appreciate this conversation. I think it is just a matter of time for us to start adapting our set up for e-bikes and provide educational resources so people learn more about e-bikes before spending so much money on cheap, unsafe conversion kits.
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 9:28 AM Todd Spinner via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
On two occasions, the Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign Illinois voted and banned all gas and electronic bikes. They are not allowed in our shops.
There are several reasons for this.
- Insurance
- Lack of knowledge of our volunteer mechanics in regard to these
types of bikes. 3. Wear and tear on our stands as they tend to be heavier than analog bikes 4. Too many different standards of ebikes make it difficult to be knowledgeable about all systems. 5. Risk of fire. 6. Since we serve both a large University and surrounding towns, the e-bike projects that folks tend to try are the cheapest DIY kits and batteries shipped from Asia. It is just not worth the liability. I have seen some really dodgy stuff over the years.
The final straw is that we are located in a basement of an old converted post office. While there are some avenues of escape that keep the fire marshall at bay, the combination of a dodgy battery and the various lubricants used over the years is a risk we really don't want to take right now.
Todd Spinner The Bike Project of Urbana-Champaign
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 8:30 AM claire grover via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hello Andy and everybody,
As someone retired, I use my mechanical bike daily, and when I have more than I can handle especially more than one long uphill destination the same day, I am happy to have that backup of an e-bike available. Not a problem with the bike workshop I attend (Gepetto et Vélo) where I also aquired my two bicycles. Nice to read you all out there again !
The situation is pretty much similar here...few resort to emails since the confinements on the Vélorution list.
brises cyclistes,
Claire Grover *+33 (0)6 26 60 07 38* Vélorution Paris
Le vendredi 10 février 2023 à 14:00:07 UTC+1, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org a écrit :
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
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-- Todd Spinner
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Thanks for this valuable thread about the increasingly emerging E-bike issue.
Tom Harrison (past board member) Third Hand Bike Co-Op, Columbus
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:59 PM, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
Unsubscribe from this list here: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/options.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.or...
In 2018, during the general assembly of l’Heureux Cyclage - the French network of bike kitchens - which is an association, similar in kind to a 501 c3 in the US, voted in favor of a motion to forbid repairing e-bikes in the member kitchens. Then in 2020 or 2021, we backtracked, and it was left to the choice of the individual organizations. Some of the most radical kitchens are strongly against on principle that it requires and depends on technologies and resources that predatory towards the environment ( lithium extraction), and also because it encourages speed, which is against the idea of slowing society down, and favoring low-techs like mechanical bikes which have much less on an impact.
Though privately, some members that have moved to the countryside will let you know that they bought a car because not even an e-bike when you are located in a place where everything is 20km (15 miles) away.
As noted by Claire, some kitchens have decided to accept e-bikes, and some have started training their mechanics in the skills necessary to repair e-bikes. The big problem is the software, which on one hand is proprietary, and on the other it requires another set of skills to be dealt with. But I think that right now in France 60% of all new bikes sold are electric, so the question clearly is not going away.
And here in Worcester, MA, where I am currently living, MassBike – the organization that lobbies at the state level has a program where 100 e- bikes were given to low-income people as part of a program to estimate the reduction of the carbon footprint, and also do a follow-up from a mobility justice perspective. I am most likely going to be doing that follow-up myself, with the university that I work for here (WPI).
One of the political goals of the project is to prove that e-bikes are a solution in a suburban setting, where 60% of the people in the US live, so that the state of Massachusetts passes a law subsidizing the buying of bikes. The other one, is to create arguments to encourage policies that have a mobility justice perspective, to lobby for better policies ( not only in terms of infrastructure) in the city of Worcester. Personally, I think that given the urban form most US places have, the best shot there is to get some people out of their cars, is to have them ride e-bikes. So I am all for that.
Alejandro
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 19:01, tomharrison00--- via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Thanks for this valuable thread about the increasingly emerging E-bike issue.
Tom Harrison (past board member) Third Hand Bike Co-Op, Columbus
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:59 PM, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank <
thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the
Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
Unsubscribe from this list here:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/options.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.or...
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I forgot to mention that Worcester Earn-a-Bike is a partner organization for the e-bike project, and they received some grant money from it.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 22:52, Alejandro Manga Tinoco < alejandromanga@gmail.com> wrote:
In 2018, during the general assembly of l’Heureux Cyclage - the French network of bike kitchens - which is an association, similar in kind to a 501 c3 in the US, voted in favor of a motion to forbid repairing e-bikes in the member kitchens. Then in 2020 or 2021, we backtracked, and it was left to the choice of the individual organizations. Some of the most radical kitchens are strongly against on principle that it requires and depends on technologies and resources that predatory towards the environment ( lithium extraction), and also because it encourages speed, which is against the idea of slowing society down, and favoring low-techs like mechanical bikes which have much less on an impact.
Though privately, some members that have moved to the countryside will let you know that they bought a car because not even an e-bike when you are located in a place where everything is 20km (15 miles) away.
As noted by Claire, some kitchens have decided to accept e-bikes, and some have started training their mechanics in the skills necessary to repair e-bikes. The big problem is the software, which on one hand is proprietary, and on the other it requires another set of skills to be dealt with. But I think that right now in France 60% of all new bikes sold are electric, so the question clearly is not going away.
And here in Worcester, MA, where I am currently living, MassBike – the organization that lobbies at the state level has a program where 100 e- bikes were given to low-income people as part of a program to estimate the reduction of the carbon footprint, and also do a follow-up from a mobility justice perspective. I am most likely going to be doing that follow-up myself, with the university that I work for here (WPI).
One of the political goals of the project is to prove that e-bikes are a solution in a suburban setting, where 60% of the people in the US live, so that the state of Massachusetts passes a law subsidizing the buying of bikes. The other one, is to create arguments to encourage policies that have a mobility justice perspective, to lobby for better policies ( not only in terms of infrastructure) in the city of Worcester. Personally, I think that given the urban form most US places have, the best shot there is to get some people out of their cars, is to have them ride e-bikes. So I am all for that.
Alejandro
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 19:01, tomharrison00--- via Thethinktank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Thanks for this valuable thread about the increasingly emerging E-bike issue.
Tom Harrison (past board member) Third Hand Bike Co-Op, Columbus
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:59 PM, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank <
thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the
Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
Unsubscribe from this list here:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/options.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.or...
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Sounds like e-bikes would be a good workshop topic for Bike!Bike! and/or Bike!Bike! Everywhere!.
Sub-topics would probably include:
Overview (common types of e-bikes, advantages/disadvantages, and associated use-cases)
Safety (weight, electrical, fire)
Insurance
DIY or self-installed systems (installation, maintenance, and repair)
Commercial systems (training & licensing, maintenance, and repair)
Resources for learning more & to share with patrons who have questions about e-bikes
That's a lot of ground to cover, and much of it requires special knowledge, so maybe it would be a general discussion with a panel of topic-experts? I can speak a bit on self-installed hub motor systems and might be able to get a friend with experience in Bosch systems to participate.
Anyone else have relevant expertise that they could share?
-Darin
---- On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 19:54:41 -0800 Alejandro Manga Tinoco via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote ---
I forgot to mention that Worcester Earn-a-Bike is a partner organization for the e-bike project, and they received some grant money from it.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 22:52, Alejandro Manga Tinoco mailto:alejandromanga@gmail.com wrote:
In 2018, during the general assembly of l’Heureux Cyclage - the French network of bike kitchens - which is an association, similar in kind to a 501 c3 in the US, voted in favor of a motion to forbid repairing e-bikes in the member kitchens. Then in 2020 or 2021, we backtracked, and it was left to the choice of the individual organizations. Some of the most radical kitchens are strongly against on principle that it requires and depends on technologies and resources that predatory towards the environment ( lithium extraction), and also because it encourages speed, which is against the idea of slowing society down, and favoring low-techs like mechanical bikes which have much less on an impact.
Though privately, some members that have moved to the countryside will let you know that they bought a car because not even an e-bike when you are located in a place where everything is 20km (15 miles) away.
As noted by Claire, some kitchens have decided to accept e-bikes, and some have started training their mechanics in the skills necessary to repair e-bikes. The big problem is the software, which on one hand is proprietary, and on the other it requires another set of skills to be dealt with. But I think that right now in France 60% of all new bikes sold are electric, so the question clearly is not going away.
And here in Worcester, MA, where I am currently living, MassBike – the organization that lobbies at the state level has a program where 100 e- bikes were given to low-income people as part of a program to estimate the reduction of the carbon footprint, and also do a follow-up from a mobility justice perspective. I am most likely going to be doing that follow-up myself, with the university that I work for here (WPI).
One of the political goals of the project is to prove that e-bikes are a solution in a suburban setting, where 60% of the people in the US live, so that the state of Massachusetts passes a law subsidizing the buying of bikes. The other one, is to create arguments to encourage policies that have a mobility justice perspective, to lobby for better policies ( not only in terms of infrastructure) in the city of Worcester. Personally, I think that given the urban form most US places have, the best shot there is to get some people out of their cars, is to have them ride e-bikes. So I am all for that.
Alejandro
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 19:01, tomharrison00--- via Thethinktank mailto:thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote:
Thanks for this valuable thread about the increasingly emerging E-bike issue.
Tom Harrison (past board member) Third Hand Bike Co-Op, Columbus
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:59 PM, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank mailto:thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
The ThinkTank mailing List
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I only have a little.
One important thing is that the instances of fire largely stem from two factors (really mainly one), those being 1) poorly built chargers and 2) leaving the battery connected to the charger after charging is complete. It's mainly just the charger, because a properly designed charger will cut off current to the battery once the charge is complete. Also, different designs configure the charge cycle differently. The main reason people use inadequate chargers is price - a proper charger will always, at least currently, be expensive, lower end being in the range of $100.
Also, cheaper ebike manufacturers often do not ship quality chargers with their bikes, and the consumer doesn't even know the difference or subsequently have the ability to compensate.
Other bits of wisdom:
Mid-drive kits are nice for traditional mechanics because they change very little of how a traditional bike is assembled and functions. The exception to the advantages being that if your chain snaps, you are dead in the water just like on an normal bike, but unlike on a normal bike, you might be hauling a trailer, or 30lbs of groceries uphill. Not fun. Another advantage of mid-drive motors is that your motor has access to the full range of gearing possibilities for the rear hub, which means the motor (and battery) can benefit from the same kinds of gearing advantages that your muscles do. Saves wear and battery life; I get way more range and performance out of my mid-drive ebike than I do from my wheelhub ebike.
Wheelhub motors, the other option, require non-standard spoke sizes, and in order to be structurally sound, also require reinforced dropouts in the frame, due to the high torque involved. Wheelhub motors also force the center of gravity to the rear, where a lot of the rider weight is centered anyway, making for poor handling unless the overall construction compensates for it. This is exacerbated when the battery is mounted over the rear wheel. One advantage is that on a wheelhub motor ebike, the chain can snap and you still have drive, though snapping is less likely in this case since it isn't used for motor drive.
Front wheelhub motors are a terrible idea unless they are very small, as forks were never designed to bear sudden acceleration forces, especially with electric motors being especially high-torque. Also, front dropouts are usually more minimal, and therefore weaker than rear.
Suspension is also important to have on the higher-speed bikes. Hitting a pothole at 2mph on a road bike with narrow tires and the extra weight of a motor and battery (and whatever else you're carrying because you have the extra power of the motor and battery) is a dangerous and extremely uncomfortable experience. It can increase the likelihood and severity of repetitive stress injuries. Wide tires are a minimum requirement for long term riding.
Off the top of my head, the last thing is GEOMETRY. Bicycle geometry is generally not designed for constant high speed handling in traffic; most road-spectrum frames, including gravel, randonneur, cyclocross, etc., have way too steep of a head tube angle to maneuver safely at 20-30mph. These angles (notwithstanding the rake, of course) are made for precision moves at low speeds, where safe high speed handling requires a great deal of experiences and control. Think of every motorcycle head tube you ever saw - nowhere near vertical. So, a frameset really has to have been designed appropriately for it's intended sustained speeds.
It's disturbing how many ebikes out there come from the manufacturer advertising 25+mph speeds while still featuring more or less normal bicycle geometry.
There's other stuff about voltages and battery mounts and component choices and software too, but a lot of that falls more into consumer/enthusiast types of data.
~cyclista Nicholas
On 2023-02-15 23:32, Darin Wick via Thethinktank wrote:
Sounds like e-bikes would be a good workshop topic for Bike!Bike! and/or Bike!Bike! Everywhere!.
Sub-topics would probably include:
- Overview (common types of e-bikes, advantages/disadvantages, and
associated use-cases)
Safety (weight, electrical, fire)
Insurance
DIY or self-installed systems (installation, maintenance, and repair)
Commercial systems (training & licensing, maintenance, and repair)
Resources for learning more & to share with patrons who have
questions about e-bikes
That's a lot of ground to cover, and much of it requires special knowledge, so maybe it would be a general discussion with a panel of topic-experts? I can speak a bit on self-installed hub motor systems and might be able to get a friend with experience in Bosch systems to participate.
Anyone else have relevant expertise that they could share?
-Darin
---- On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 19:54:41 -0800 Alejandro Manga Tinoco via Thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote ---
I forgot to mention that Worcester Earn-a-Bike is a partner organization for the e-bike project, and they received some grant money from it.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 22:52, Alejandro Manga Tinoco mailto:alejandromanga@gmail.com wrote:
In 2018, during the general assembly of l’Heureux Cyclage - the French network of bike kitchens - which is an association, similar in kind to a 501 c3 in the US, voted in favor of a motion to forbid repairing e-bikes in the member kitchens. Then in 2020 or 2021, we backtracked, and it was left to the choice of the individual organizations. Some of the most radical kitchens are strongly against on principle that it requires and depends on technologies and resources that predatory towards the environment ( lithium extraction), and also because it encourages speed, which is against the idea of slowing society down, and favoring low-techs like mechanical bikes which have much less on an impact.
Though privately, some members that have moved to the countryside will let you know that they bought a car because not even an e-bike when you are located in a place where everything is 20km (15 miles) away.
As noted by Claire, some kitchens have decided to accept e-bikes, and some have started training their mechanics in the skills necessary to repair e-bikes. The big problem is the software, which on one hand is proprietary, and on the other it requires another set of skills to be dealt with. But I think that right now in France 60% of all new bikes sold are electric, so the question clearly is not going away.
And here in Worcester, MA, where I am currently living, MassBike – the organization that lobbies at the state level has a program where 100 e- bikes were given to low-income people as part of a program to estimate the reduction of the carbon footprint, and also do a follow-up from a mobility justice perspective. I am most likely going to be doing that follow-up myself, with the university that I work for here (WPI).
One of the political goals of the project is to prove that e-bikes are a solution in a suburban setting, where 60% of the people in the US live, so that the state of Massachusetts passes a law subsidizing the buying of bikes. The other one, is to create arguments to encourage policies that have a mobility justice perspective, to lobby for better policies ( not only in terms of infrastructure) in the city of Worcester. Personally, I think that given the urban form most US places have, the best shot there is to get some people out of their cars, is to have them ride e-bikes. So I am all for that.
Alejandro
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 19:01, tomharrison00--- via Thethinktank mailto:thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote:
Thanks for this valuable thread about the increasingly emerging E-bike issue.
Tom Harrison (past board member) Third Hand Bike Co-Op, Columbus
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:59 PM, Andy Ballentine via Thethinktank
mailto:thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org wrote:
Hi --
How are bike co-ops dealing with e-bikes? We are all-volunteer at
the Bicycle Co-Op of Williamsburg (Virginia). We have several very fine mechanics, but none of us is expert in the motors and batteries of e-bikes, and we don't know whether we should accept them as donations or sell them. I'd be interested in others' experience and policies.
Thanks --
Andy Ballentine ____________________________________
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participants (10)
-
Alejandro Manga Tinoco -
Andy Ballentine -
claire grover -
cyclista＠inventati.org -
Darin Wick -
Gabriel Trainer -
Jim Sheehan -
Todd Spinner -
tomharrison00＠gmail.com -
Xail Hernandez