Brian-

Well put- and I'm excited to see people getting passionate about these issues. Do you all mind if I reference this conversation in an upcoming class we're having on winter commuting? I think the visibility debate will rage, especially up here in the frozen north, where the winters bring narrower lanes and more irritable drivers, less patience, more freakouts, and so much to pay attention too- lights and reflectors and visibility become, suddenly - and more than ever, key.

Peace- pete

On Jan 15, 2008 9:59 AM, Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. < urbanbikeproject@gmail.com> wrote:

Christopher,

I think there may be some confusion about the meaning of my post...

" I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have"

I was stating that even if I had "Aircraft landing lights" on the front of my bike I would still ride and act like cars did not see me. In other words, behave like traffic but don't expect to be treated like traffic * despite* having bright lights.

This means riding defensively and never, *ever*, assuming you have the right of way. That's what I teach and practice as a bicycle education leader of my community. I invested in a very expensive 12V NiteHawk system last year and I always encourage others to buy adequate lighting.

Sidewalk/Street, Helmet/No Helmet, Good Lighting/Bad Lighting/No Lighting. Teach people the right way, lead by example and make sure they're safe-as-can-be no matter what method they choose.

Hope that shed some light..hehe

Brian

On Jan 14, 2008 11:19 PM, < BovineOaks@aol.com> wrote:

...

I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have.

Brian UBP

If I taped ten thousand lightning bugs to my body I still would not put out much light, Barely a dim glow if I was lucky. It is not the number of lights that make you seen or not seen it is the *brightness* of the lights that matters.

If you put on Aircraft landing lights on the front of your bike and shot a beam a half mile down the road I am sure you could not say "*I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have."

If you said "I have a bunch of low lumen flash lights on my bike and I can not be seen by cars that have lots of lumens coming out of their headlamps, then I would have to say DUH! Car drivers are looking for traffic to have high lumen lights out on the road, if you wish to be treated like traffic, act like traffic!

What would you think if a car had two little battery powered flash lights or little bicycle blinkers where its head lamps were supposed to be? Would you see the car if other brightly lit cars were around it or would it be near invisible? Brian you should behave like you are invisible when you have low lumen lights on your bike, because you are. You can either whine about it or change your choice of lights.

I am asking you to Think, We are the .

Christopher Wallace

---

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapehttp://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489in the new year.

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-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building)

Wilmington, DE 19801

Visit us online at http://urbanbikeproject.org _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org

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Riding like no one can see you is excelent advice. I wear a helmet and highly reccomend them to everyone who does not want to spend their free time relearning the alphabet. I have been told, by the most beautiful person on earth no less, that twilight is the most dangerous time to be out, as that is when travelers eyes have the hardest time adjusting and reacting. Friends of mine have been hit by motorists who simply did not see them. And that was before cell phones, for the most part. So, lights, helmets, pepper spray, spare tubes, and its always good to bring an ink pen (useful in emergencies and when you run into old friends). From my life experience, My best friends life was saved by a nice couple In a huge Chevy Suburban. They were on the same desolate road in Utah when Sam crashed and were nice enough to stop, help with first aid and let Sam bleed in their vehicle. I have also had a cyclist, going twice the legal limit on the Platte River trail almost run into my daughter. She has a horseshoe kidney, and this could kill her. So, life, responsibility, and perceptions are not simple matters. Peace, Art

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:05:23 -0600From: petemorsch@gmail.comTo: thethinktank@bikecollectives.orgSubject: Re: [TheThinkTank] LightsBrian-Well put- and I'm excited to see people getting passionate about these issues. Do you all mind if I reference this conversation in an upcoming class we're having on winter commuting? I think the visibility debate will rage, especially up here in the frozen north, where the winters bring narrower lanes and more irritable drivers, less patience, more freakouts, and so much to pay attention too- lights and reflectors and visibility become, suddenly - and more than ever, key. Peace-pete On Jan 15, 2008 9:59 AM, Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. urbanbikeproject@gmail.com wrote: Christopher,I think there may be some confusion about the meaning of my post..." I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have"I was stating that even if I had "Aircraft landing lights" on the front of my bike I would still ride and act like cars did not see me. In other words, behave like traffic but don't expect to be treated like traffic despite having bright lights.This means riding defensively and never, ever, assuming you have the right of way. That's what I teach and practice as a bicycle education leader of my community. I invested in a very expensive 12V NiteHawk system last year and I always encourage others to buy adequate lighting.Sidewalk/Street, Helmet/No Helmet, Good Lighting/Bad Lighting/No Lighting. Teach people the right way, lead by example and make sure they're safe-as-can-be no matter what method they choose. Hope that shed some light..heheBrian On Jan 14, 2008 11:19 PM, < BovineOaks@aol.com> wrote:

I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have. BrianUBP

If I taped ten thousand lightning bugs to my body I still would not put out much light, Barely a dim glow if I was lucky. It is not the number of lights that make you seen or not seen it is the brightness of the lights that matters.

If you put on Aircraft landing lights on the front of your bike and shot a beam a half mile down the road I am sure you could not say "I always behave like i'm invisible to cars no matter how much illumination I have." If you said "I have a bunch of low lumen flash lights on my bike and I can not be seen by cars that have lots of lumens coming out of their headlamps, then I would have to say DUH! Car drivers are looking for traffic to have high lumen lights out on the road, if you wish to be treated like traffic, act like traffic!

What would you think if a car had two little battery powered flash lights or little bicycle blinkers where its head lamps were supposed to be? Would you see the car if other brightly lit cars were around it or would it be near invisible? Brian you should behave like you are invisible when you have low lumen lights on your bike, because you are. You can either whine about it or change your choice of lights.

I am asking you to Think, We are the .

Christopher Wallace

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. _______________________________________________Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@bikecollectives.orghttp://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o... Urban Bike Project of Wilmington1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19801Visit us online at http://urbanbikeproject.org _______________________________________________Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@bikecollectives.orghttp://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o... Pete Rasmus Morsch701.866.0962Find the Fargo-Moorhead Community Bicycle Workshop at our New Site: www.fmbikeworkshop.org"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." -President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April, 1953.