Re: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
We have had this problem over the years also.
We have developed a 1 bike a year policy to try to avoid this with occasional exceptions for stolen bikes, etc.
We also have a max on our work trade credit that people can earn of $160. We figure that people can get a good, quality bike for that kind of money but they cant work off the full price of really fancy bikes that we need to sell to help pay our overhead.
We dont really have a limit on how much parts people can work for. We have such a high demand for our Work Trade program that we try to get everyone that needs a bike or a repair the opportunity to do so but if people seem to be abusing that then we will give others the priority for work credit over the abuser.
We do also sell used parts on the super cheap. We have had minimal problems with this over the years. We have a few people that fix up bikes on the side and come to us to buy parts and bikes. The problem with this is that they often scoff at our already super low prices because they are wanting to make a profit which is not our problem. I will often times give people working on their bikes a much better deal than these guys that are repairing for profit but if they are willing to pay for the parts then we dont really care what they do with it. The other problem is these garage repair guys will come in and try to buy all of our best parts for rock bottom prices. For example, our kickstands are $1 but this guy would come in and buy all 10 of our long aluminum kickstands and then we have only crappy steel and too short kickstands for people that live on their bikes with all their gear and need a good kickstand. So now its sort of a one kickstand, 2 tires, etc at a time and nicer parts and better condition cost more (steel kickstands+$1, Alum=$3). Seems to work pretty well because its still a great deal for people that need to fix their bikes and we get a little more cash flow from these guys even if we have to listen to them whine about the prices.
Then there is the ebay crowd which probably made a lot of money off of us for years but now we either sell it in the shop for a still cheap but more fair market value price or we will sell some vintage campy whatever on ebay ourselves and have more cash flow for our programs. ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Kirkwood Sent: 03/25/13 07:51 AM To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Subject: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
I am curious if any of you have had problems with folks using community bike shops to run their own repair business? We currently have some folks who are abusing the privilege of purchasing parts with sweat equity volunteer time and then selling those parts to folks outside the shop. How does your shop police that?
Allen Kirkwood
I've gotta say that this has been one of my favorite threads so far. This is a constant issue at Plan B and you've given us some great insights. It's funny how it's always the "bike hustlers" that give us the hardest time about our (super cheap) used parts prices. One of the things I've recommended we start doing for used parts is that the we start using the baseline wholesale price for comparable new parts as our used parts pricing structure, which would actually be quite an increase. I'm just tired of people trying to buy 5 cranksets off of us for $5 a piece and making a profit from mostly volunteer effort. It sucks.
The other tactic I've personally taken is extreme directness. I tell the people trying to buy used in bulk that it's actually illegal to profiteer from our efforts as a non-profit and liken it to selling your food stamps for cash. We're not a gov't agency, but it's a similar situation.
Victor Pizarro Project Organizer Plan B, The New Orleans Community Bike Project
On 3/27/2013 10:20 AM, troy neiman wrote:
We have had this problem over the years also.
We have developed a 1 bike a year policy to try to avoid this with occasional exceptions for stolen bikes, etc.
We also have a max on our work trade credit that people can earn of $160. We figure that people can get a good, quality bike for that kind of money but they cant work off the full price of really fancy bikes that we need to sell to help pay our overhead.
We dont really have a limit on how much parts people can work for. We have such a high demand for our Work Trade program that we try to get everyone that needs a bike or a repair the opportunity to do so but if people seem to be abusing that then we will give others the priority for work credit over the abuser.
We do also sell used parts on the super cheap. We have had minimal problems with this over the years. We have a few people that fix up bikes on the side and come to us to buy parts and bikes. The problem with this is that they often scoff at our already super low prices because they are wanting to make a profit which is not our problem. I will often times give people working on their bikes a much better deal than these guys that are repairing for profit but if they are willing to pay for the parts then we dont really care what they do with it.
The other problem is these garage repair guys will come in and try to buy all of our best parts for rock bottom prices. For example, our kickstands are $1 but this guy would come in and buy all 10 of our long aluminum kickstands and then we have only crappy steel and too short kickstands for people that live on their bikes with all their gear and need a good kickstand. So now its sort of a one kickstand, 2 tires, etc at a time and nicer parts and better condition cost more (steel kickstands+$1, Alum=$3). Seems to work pretty well because its still a great deal for people that need to fix their bikes and we get a little more cash flow from these guys even if we have to listen to them whine about the prices.Then there is the ebay crowd which probably made a lot of money off of us for years but now we either sell it in the shop for a still cheap but more fair market value price or we will sell some vintage campy whatever on ebay ourselves and have more cash flow for our programs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Kirkwood
Sent: 03/25/13 07:51 AM
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
I am curious if any of you have had problems with folks using community bike shops to run their own repair business? We currently have some folks who are abusing the privilege of purchasing parts with sweat equity volunteer time and then selling those parts to folks outside the shop. How does your shop police that? Allen Kirkwood
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
At Bike Farm (Portland, OR) we've never had a problem with this and have no policies regarding the resale of parts purchased at our shop. If you buy it, it's yours. The used bike market here is absolutely huge and there are so many shops selling parts & bikes (used and new) so that may be why. We typically see people buying parts for their own bikes while working in the shop.
Frank
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Plan B nolabikeproject@gmail.com wrote:
I've gotta say that this has been one of my favorite threads so far. This is a constant issue at Plan B and you've given us some great insights. It's funny how it's always the "bike hustlers" that give us the hardest time about our (super cheap) used parts prices. One of the things I've recommended we start doing for used parts is that the we start using the baseline wholesale price for comparable new parts as our used parts pricing structure, which would actually be quite an increase. I'm just tired of people trying to buy 5 cranksets off of us for $5 a piece and making a profit from mostly volunteer effort. It sucks.
The other tactic I've personally taken is extreme directness. I tell the people trying to buy used in bulk that it's actually illegal to profiteer from our efforts as a non-profit and liken it to selling your food stamps for cash. We're not a gov't agency, but it's a similar situation.
Victor Pizarro Project Organizer Plan B, The New Orleans Community Bike Project
On 3/27/2013 10:20 AM, troy neiman wrote:
We have had this problem over the years also.
We have developed a 1 bike a year policy to try to avoid this with occasional exceptions for stolen bikes, etc.
We also have a max on our work trade credit that people can earn of $160. We figure that people can get a good, quality bike for that kind of money but they cant work off the full price of really fancy bikes that we need to sell to help pay our overhead.
We dont really have a limit on how much parts people can work for. We have such a high demand for our Work Trade program that we try to get everyone that needs a bike or a repair the opportunity to do so but if people seem to be abusing that then we will give others the priority for work credit over the abuser.
We do also sell used parts on the super cheap. We have had minimal problems with this over the years. We have a few people that fix up bikes on the side and come to us to buy parts and bikes. The problem with this is that they often scoff at our already super low prices because they are wanting to make a profit which is not our problem. I will often times give people working on their bikes a much better deal than these guys that are repairing for profit but if they are willing to pay for the parts then we dont really care what they do with it. The other problem is these garage repair guys will come in and try to buy all of our best parts for rock bottom prices. For example, our kickstands are $1 but this guy would come in and buy all 10 of our long aluminum kickstands and then we have only crappy steel and too short kickstands for people that live on their bikes with all their gear and need a good kickstand. So now its sort of a one kickstand, 2 tires, etc at a time and nicer parts and better condition cost more (steel kickstands+$1, Alum=$3). Seems to work pretty well because its still a great deal for people that need to fix their bikes and we get a little more cash flow from these guys even if we have to listen to them whine about the prices.
Then there is the ebay crowd which probably made a lot of money off of us for years but now we either sell it in the shop for a still cheap but more fair market value price or we will sell some vintage campy whatever on ebay ourselves and have more cash flow for our programs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Kirkwood
Sent: 03/25/13 07:51 AM
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
I am curious if any of you have had problems with folks using community bike shops to run their own repair business? We currently have some folks who are abusing the privilege of purchasing parts with sweat equity volunteer time and then selling those parts to folks outside the shop. How does your shop police that?
Allen Kirkwood
Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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We call those who fish through our drawers and get all the good parts "pickers" and running out of wheels in a size we need or stems or seatposts has been the main reason we don't allow them to buy from us (at least from our bins) we keep some of the nicer stuff in a small display case we have at the counter and have a fixed price on it. these are generally available for anyone to buy. I price them by looking on Ebay at completed auctions, this gives a better indicator of the market value of vintage or no longer produced items. I half the average ebay price. If someone in the shop is working on a bike that needs this part it will then get steeply discounted again. I've tried shaming pickers in the past and it seems to do nothing to them. -Enzo
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Frank frank@bikefarm.org wrote:
At Bike Farm (Portland, OR) we've never had a problem with this and have no policies regarding the resale of parts purchased at our shop. If you buy it, it's yours. The used bike market here is absolutely huge and there are so many shops selling parts & bikes (used and new) so that may be why. We typically see people buying parts for their own bikes while working in the shop.
Frank
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Plan B nolabikeproject@gmail.com wrote:
I've gotta say that this has been one of my favorite threads so far. This is a constant issue at Plan B and you've given us some great insights. It's funny how it's always the "bike hustlers" that give us the hardest time about our (super cheap) used parts prices. One of the things I've recommended we start doing for used parts is that the we start using the baseline wholesale price for comparable new parts as our used parts pricing structure, which would actually be quite an increase. I'm just tired of people trying to buy 5 cranksets off of us for $5 a piece and making a profit from mostly volunteer effort. It sucks.
The other tactic I've personally taken is extreme directness. I tell the people trying to buy used in bulk that it's actually illegal to profiteer from our efforts as a non-profit and liken it to selling your food stamps for cash. We're not a gov't agency, but it's a similar situation.
Victor Pizarro Project Organizer Plan B, The New Orleans Community Bike Project
On 3/27/2013 10:20 AM, troy neiman wrote:
We have had this problem over the years also.
We have developed a 1 bike a year policy to try to avoid this with occasional exceptions for stolen bikes, etc.
We also have a max on our work trade credit that people can earn of $160. We figure that people can get a good, quality bike for that kind of money but they cant work off the full price of really fancy bikes that we need to sell to help pay our overhead.
We dont really have a limit on how much parts people can work for. We have such a high demand for our Work Trade program that we try to get everyone that needs a bike or a repair the opportunity to do so but if people seem to be abusing that then we will give others the priority for work credit over the abuser.
We do also sell used parts on the super cheap. We have had minimal problems with this over the years. We have a few people that fix up bikes on the side and come to us to buy parts and bikes. The problem with this is that they often scoff at our already super low prices because they are wanting to make a profit which is not our problem. I will often times give people working on their bikes a much better deal than these guys that are repairing for profit but if they are willing to pay for the parts then we dont really care what they do with it. The other problem is these garage repair guys will come in and try to buy all of our best parts for rock bottom prices. For example, our kickstands are $1 but this guy would come in and buy all 10 of our long aluminum kickstands and then we have only crappy steel and too short kickstands for people that live on their bikes with all their gear and need a good kickstand. So now its sort of a one kickstand, 2 tires, etc at a time and nicer parts and better condition cost more (steel kickstands+$1, Alum=$3). Seems to work pretty well because its still a great deal for people that need to fix their bikes and we get a little more cash flow from these guys even if we have to listen to them whine about the prices.
Then there is the ebay crowd which probably made a lot of money off of us for years but now we either sell it in the shop for a still cheap but more fair market value price or we will sell some vintage campy whatever on ebay ourselves and have more cash flow for our programs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Kirkwood
Sent: 03/25/13 07:51 AM
To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
I am curious if any of you have had problems with folks using community bike shops to run their own repair business? We currently have some folks who are abusing the privilege of purchasing parts with sweat equity volunteer time and then selling those parts to folks outside the shop. How does your shop police that?
Allen Kirkwood
Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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At Bike Church Santa Cruz this is a periodic source of tension. Some of what I'll say is policy at the bike church and some of it is my own opinion of the situation-- I'll try to differentiate between the two.
Various folks pick through our parts on a daily basis. Some folks are "cherry picking" the best stuff, some folks have a fleet of bikes that they are maintaining, and probably a few are profiteering off of us. Most, in my opinion, are just kinda obsessed with bikes and nice parts and are effectively just enjoying the hunt. Which isn't so different than most of us folks running the shops, right?
I think the question to the list is about folks who fix up bikes in our shops or on their own for resale. At the bike church we've discussed this extensively. The prevailing opinion in our collective is that it is so intensely difficult to make a buck with such activities that it isn't something that we should worry too much about. It's certainly better for such folks to get bikes and parts and culture from us than bikes and parts and culture from the black market / bike thieves. And it makes some old bikes functional while providing under-the-table income for a few folks.
Where this behavior becomes problematic, in my opinion, is when individuals are either profiteering off of our shops by re-selling the best parts (eBay) or simply hoarding the best parts; in either case it removes the most useful components from circulation and prevents bikes from being getting back on the road. As Troy mentioned re: BICAS, this is especially problematic when it concerns antique or rare parts that fetch ridiculous prices on eBay. It helps a lot to have a separate, but publicly accessible area to display such parts.
When we suspect such activity at the bike church the policy is to dramatically ramp up the price charged for those components. This is at the mechanic's discretion, as are almost all of our policies, and we have a guiding principle of punishing the behavior and not the individual patron, but it amounts to a levy on cherry-picking. It isn't a perfect solution, by any means, but I think it helps and it avoids the creation of a lot of new rules and such, which can be so difficult to enforce, let alone communicate to patrons.
Glad to see that the Thinktank is thriving. I haven't checked in for a while.
in cahoots, kyle
On Mar 27, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Vincenzo loco wormsign@gmail.com wrote:
We call those who fish through our drawers and get all the good parts "pickers" and running out of wheels in a size we need or stems or seatposts has been the main reason we don't allow them to buy from us (at least from our bins) we keep some of the nicer stuff in a small display case we have at the counter and have a fixed price on it. these are generally available for anyone to buy. I price them by looking on Ebay at completed auctions, this gives a better indicator of the market value of vintage or no longer produced items. I half the average ebay price. If someone in the shop is working on a bike that needs this part it will then get steeply discounted again. I've tried shaming pickers in the past and it seems to do nothing to them. -Enzo
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Frank frank@bikefarm.org wrote: At Bike Farm (Portland, OR) we've never had a problem with this and have no policies regarding the resale of parts purchased at our shop. If you buy it, it's yours. The used bike market here is absolutely huge and there are so many shops selling parts & bikes (used and new) so that may be why. We typically see people buying parts for their own bikes while working in the shop.
Frank
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Plan B nolabikeproject@gmail.com wrote: I've gotta say that this has been one of my favorite threads so far. This is a constant issue at Plan B and you've given us some great insights. It's funny how it's always the "bike hustlers" that give us the hardest time about our (super cheap) used parts prices. One of the things I've recommended we start doing for used parts is that the we start using the baseline wholesale price for comparable new parts as our used parts pricing structure, which would actually be quite an increase. I'm just tired of people trying to buy 5 cranksets off of us for $5 a piece and making a profit from mostly volunteer effort. It sucks.
The other tactic I've personally taken is extreme directness. I tell the people trying to buy used in bulk that it's actually illegal to profiteer from our efforts as a non-profit and liken it to selling your food stamps for cash. We're not a gov't agency, but it's a similar situation. Victor Pizarro Project Organizer Plan B, The New Orleans Community Bike Project On 3/27/2013 10:20 AM, troy neiman wrote:
We have had this problem over the years also.
We have developed a 1 bike a year policy to try to avoid this with occasional exceptions for stolen bikes, etc.
We also have a max on our work trade credit that people can earn of $160. We figure that people can get a good, quality bike for that kind of money but they cant work off the full price of really fancy bikes that we need to sell to help pay our overhead.
We dont really have a limit on how much parts people can work for. We have such a high demand for our Work Trade program that we try to get everyone that needs a bike or a repair the opportunity to do so but if people seem to be abusing that then we will give others the priority for work credit over the abuser.
We do also sell used parts on the super cheap. We have had minimal problems with this over the years. We have a few people that fix up bikes on the side and come to us to buy parts and bikes. The problem with this is that they often scoff at our already super low prices because they are wanting to make a profit which is not our problem. I will often times give people working on their bikes a much better deal than these guys that are repairing for profit but if they are willing to pay for the parts then we dont really care what they do with it. The other problem is these garage repair guys will come in and try to buy all of our best parts for rock bottom prices. For example, our kickstands are $1 but this guy would come in and buy all 10 of our long aluminum kickstands and then we have only crappy steel and too short kickstands for people that live on their bikes with all their gear and need a good kickstand. So now its sort of a one kickstand, 2 tires, etc at a time and nicer parts and better condition cost more (steel kickstands+$1, Alum=$3). Seems to work pretty well because its still a great deal for people that need to fix their bikes and we get a little more cash flow from these guys even if we have to listen to them whine about the prices.
Then there is the ebay crowd which probably made a lot of money off of us for years but now we either sell it in the shop for a still cheap but more fair market value price or we will sell some vintage campy whatever on ebay ourselves and have more cash flow for our programs.
----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Kirkwood Sent: 03/25/13 07:51 AM To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Subject: [TheThinkTank] Policy on Profiteering from Community Bike Shops
I am curious if any of you have had problems with folks using community bike shops to run their own repair business? We currently have some folks who are abusing the privilege of purchasing parts with sweat equity volunteer time and then selling those parts to folks outside the shop. How does your shop police that?
Allen Kirkwood
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participants (5)
-
Frank -
kyle mckinley -
Plan B -
troy neiman -
Vincenzo loco