Distributors and interacting with the profit model
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers.
We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall.
We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing.
This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads.
Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Try the small ones first and work your way up the food chain to cheaper prices. Try the newest distributor for your area and get your foot in the door with a larger order. Most if not all the ordering can be done online and once past the first order they don't care. Our first order was around $1000 and we do about three orders a year that avg 1500 each. I will say that the first distributor we went after said no do to our credit history, i changed it to my personal one (made it look like i owned the shop) and had no problems setting it up.
Most if not all will require Business license insurance some require a photo of your shop or sales area (get creative)
We started with XYZ then went to Hawley, then JBI and now Quality Each time we move up we get better terms, shipping and service
If you still have problems im sure the bigger shops on this list can help you out.
Patrick STLbikeworks
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller
today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a
business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need
of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned
that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from
his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective.
Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be
attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer
and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth
of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your
profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count
on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of
profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be
doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have
relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do
not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a
co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these
organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of
LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture
isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a
fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers
club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of
the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could
act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional
shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors
AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much
volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding
together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary
consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor
relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been
suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my
archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my
assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what
the real deal is.
cheers.
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org
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Hi,
We have two small collective shops at Troy Bike Rescue, in Troy and Albany. We are also very lucky to have a major distributor's warehouse nearby who are very accommodating with our order needs.
In our shops we heavily emphasize using recycled parts first. We only were really keeping new cables, bearings, and housing in stock.
We had a special situation in Troy, which made us rethink some of our shop policies on not buying new parts for our customers' consumption. The local police began issuing tickets for not having bike bells or lights, to the tune of like 50 bucks in some cases.
We test ordered some bells, lights, and patch kits to see if people would be willing to give us a more specific "suggested donation" for the parts, since the parts were paid for by us, instead of relying on donations. In our case, there was no local bike shop or even a major big box retailer that was easily accessible for people who use bikes as a primary means of transportation to get a bell or a light.
So far, the change has been very successful. We wanted to make sure, if we were providing people with bikes, we were also providing them with the opportunity to get a bell and a light. People have heard about the ticketing, have been coming to us for bells and are very willing to meet our minimum suggested donation.
With our minimum suggested donation, we try to cover the cost of our purchase, and not undercut the local bike shops to much. So far, this has been cool.
We also let our core staff order stuff when we order from the distributor. No one is paid at our shops, so it is a small reward for a group of very dedicated people. Of course, this is about 10-12 people for two shops, so it isn't to much of an onerous task. Each person is responsible for looking at the catalog, writing down all the relevant information, and then making sure the items are in stock at the local supplier before we order.
Carolyn www.troybikerescue.org
"When shall we live if not now?" - M.F.K. Fisher
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, rachael spiewak rachael@sopobikes.org wrote:
From: rachael spiewak rachael@sopobikes.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 6:53 AM
We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall.
We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing.
This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads.
Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller
distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a
business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need
of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned
that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from
his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective.
Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be
attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer
and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth
of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your
profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count
on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of
profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be
doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have
relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do
not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a
co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these
organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of
LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture
isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a
fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers
club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of
the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could
act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional
shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors
AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much
volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding
together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary
consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor
relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been
suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my
archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my
assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what
the real deal is.
cheers.
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org
To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
We started with J&B a couple of years ago and they we're very accommodating. We now have accounts with QBP and BTI as well.
Rich Community Cycles Boulder
Patrick VDT wrote:
Try the small ones first and work your way up the food chain to cheaper prices. Try the newest distributor for your area and get your foot in the door with a larger order. Most if not all the ordering can be done online and once past the first order they don't care. Our first order was around $1000 and we do about three orders a year that avg 1500 each. I will say that the first distributor we went after said no do to our credit history, i changed it to my personal one (made it look like i owned the shop) and had no problems setting it up.
Most if not all will require Business license insurance some require a photo of your shop or sales area (get creative)
We started with XYZ then went to Hawley, then JBI and now Quality Each time we move up we get better terms, shipping and service
If you still have problems im sure the bigger shops on this list can help you out.
Patrick STLbikeworks
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com mailto:rigelc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts. He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing. I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not. I'm curious about a couple of things. 1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor? It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes. My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital. The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course. I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is. cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org <mailto:TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org-- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org http://www.sopobikes.org
Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here. http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
We have an account with J & B as well. Minimum order of $150 but we usually order $300-$500 every month and a half and have someone pick it up from their warehouse (conveniently located about a half hour away by car).
I find it hard to believe that distributors would be turning away any kind of business down right now. It's probably a great to be applying for accounts, even if you'll only be placing small orders.
Brian
Urban Bike Project of Wilmington -a 501(c)3 non-profit bike shop- 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19802
Hours: Thursday 6:30-9:00 Saturday 1:00-4:00
Visit us online at http://urbanbikeproject.org
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:59 AM, R Points poster@richpoints.com wrote:
We started with J&B a couple of years ago and they we're very accommodating. We now have accounts with QBP and BTI as well.
Rich Community Cycles Boulder
Patrick VDT wrote:
Try the small ones first and work your way up the food chain to cheaper prices. Try the newest distributor for your area and get your foot in the door with a larger order. Most if not all the ordering can be done online and once past the first order they don't care. Our first order was around $1000 and we do about three orders a year that avg 1500 each. I will say that the first distributor we went after said no do to our credit history, i changed it to my personal one (made it look like i owned the shop) and had no problems setting it up.
Most if not all will require Business license insurance some require a photo of your shop or sales area (get creative)
We started with XYZ then went to Hawley, then JBI and now Quality Each time we move up we get better terms, shipping and service
If you still have problems im sure the bigger shops on this list can help you out.
Patrick STLbikeworks
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org
Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm
Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009
Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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Hi Rigel,
The question of DIY/Community shops banding together to enact greater discounts and easier account getting from major distributors has come up before. Some folks spoke a little about it at Bikebike! last year, and the conclusion a lot of folks came to was that creating such a national account for community bike shops would in effect shift the burden of inventory and the overhead of shipping and staffing and administering such a thing onto the local shops.
Basically, "*someone's gotta run the thing.*"
I would very much be interested in working with anyone who's interested to try and get a coalition of shops or similar to approach distributors or manufacturers even, about getting discounts, bulk rates, etc.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
I myself am interested in "running the thing". I have been researching the collectives for some time now. The issue with my state of residence (West Virginia) is the population distance. Our major cities are still car-centric; and the mountains between cities prohibit extensive bicycle travel.
The concept I have been kicking around since meeting Jonathan Morrison of SLBC at Interbike last year has been a bicycle consumables / parts co-op for bicycle collectives. Since everybody is likely buying (or needs to buy) the same items (tools, tubes...) the co-op will allow the buying power to benefit the co-op members.
I have experience in distribution / warehousing and freight / shipping as well as purchasing, sales, management and marketing.
Please reply to this message if you would like to discuss the co-op further.
Thanks again, Austin Amos.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rigel,
The question of DIY/Community shops banding together to enact greater discounts and easier account getting from major distributors has come up before. Some folks spoke a little about it at Bikebike! last year, and the conclusion a lot of folks came to was that creating such a national account for community bike shops would in effect shift the burden of inventory and the overhead of shipping and staffing and administering such a thing onto the local shops.
Basically, "*someone's gotta run the thing.*"
I would very much be interested in working with anyone who's interested to try and get a coalition of shops or similar to approach distributors or manufacturers even, about getting discounts, bulk rates, etc.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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Austin, I'd find a parts and supplies co-op useful. You'd probably need a membership fee to cover overhead and a certain amount of margin above cost to cover your materials handling expenses. How soon could you have a business plan together?
Doug Franz
Coatesville community bike works
From: thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Austin Amos Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:36 PM To: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model
I myself am interested in "running the thing". I have been researching the collectives for some time now. The issue with my state of residence (West Virginia) is the population distance. Our major cities are still car-centric; and the mountains between cities prohibit extensive bicycle travel.
The concept I have been kicking around since meeting Jonathan Morrison of SLBC at Interbike last year has been a bicycle consumables / parts co-op for bicycle collectives. Since everybody is likely buying (or needs to buy) the same items (tools, tubes...) the co-op will allow the buying power to benefit the co-op members.
I have experience in distribution / warehousing and freight / shipping as well as purchasing, sales, management and marketing.
Please reply to this message if you would like to discuss the co-op further.
Thanks again, Austin Amos.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rigel,
The question of DIY/Community shops banding together to enact greater discounts and easier account getting from major distributors has come up before. Some folks spoke a little about it at Bikebike! last year, and the conclusion a lot of folks came to was that creating such a national account for community bike shops would in effect shift the burden of inventory and the overhead of shipping and staffing and administering such a thing onto the local shops.
Basically, "someone's gotta run the thing."
I would very much be interested in working with anyone who's interested to try and get a coalition of shops or similar to approach distributors or manufacturers even, about getting discounts, bulk rates, etc.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o rg
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I think it's a usefull idea- It doesn't sound too far from becominga distributor that serves the collective community.
At the Bike Church in Santa Cruz, I have come to expect an account from just about any wholesaler on the market. our paperwork is in order and we have insurance, but have had accounts longer than that's been true. Our volume is pretty big, but i don't have the #'s off the top of my head (i'm not the accountant nor the order clerk)- I expect $1000- $1500/ month. Our relations with local shop are good too.
josh
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Doug Franz doug@coatesvillebikeworks.orgwrote:
Austin, I’d find a parts and supplies co-op useful. You’d probably need a membership fee to cover overhead and a certain amount of margin above cost to cover your materials handling expenses. How soon could you have a business plan together?
Doug Franz
Coatesville community bike works
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Austin Amos *Sent:* Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:36 PM *To:* The Think Tank *Subject:* Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model
I myself am interested in "running the thing". I have been researching the collectives for some time now. The issue with my state of residence (West Virginia) is the population distance. Our major cities are still car-centric; and the mountains between cities prohibit extensive bicycle travel.
The concept I have been kicking around since meeting Jonathan Morrison of SLBC at Interbike last year has been a bicycle consumables / parts co-op for bicycle collectives. Since everybody is likely buying (or needs to buy) the same items (tools, tubes...) the co-op will allow the buying power to benefit the co-op members.
I have experience in distribution / warehousing and freight / shipping as well as purchasing, sales, management and marketing.
Please reply to this message if you would like to discuss the co-op further.
Thanks again, Austin Amos.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Rigel,
The question of DIY/Community shops banding together to enact greater discounts and easier account getting from major distributors has come up before. Some folks spoke a little about it at Bikebike! last year, and the conclusion a lot of folks came to was that creating such a national account for community bike shops would in effect shift the burden of inventory and the overhead of shipping and staffing and administering such a thing onto the local shops.
Basically, "*someone's gotta run the thing.*"
I would very much be interested in working with anyone who's interested to try and get a coalition of shops or similar to approach distributors or manufacturers even, about getting discounts, bulk rates, etc.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Rigel Christian rigelc@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
- Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor?
- Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop
spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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-- __o _ <,_ Austin Amos (_) / (_) Mobile: 304-545-6505
Connect with me on: Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/austin.amos LinkedIn - http://www.linkedin.com/in/austinamos
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all sounds like juicy further discussion for BikeBike. looking forward to seeing everyone there!! Andrew Lynn Troy Bike Rescue
Austin Amos wrote:
I myself am interested in "running the thing". I have been researching the collectives for some time now. The issue with my state of residence (West Virginia) is the population distance. Our major cities are still car-centric; and the mountains between cities prohibit extensive bicycle travel.
The concept I have been kicking around since meeting Jonathan Morrison of SLBC at Interbike last year has been a bicycle consumables / parts co-op for bicycle collectives. Since everybody is likely buying (or needs to buy) the same items (tools, tubes...) the co-op will allow the buying power to benefit the co-op members.
I have experience in distribution / warehousing and freight / shipping as well as purchasing, sales, management and marketing.
Please reply to this message if you would like to discuss the co-op further.
Thanks again, Austin Amos.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, <veganboyjosh@gmail.com mailto:veganboyjosh@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rigel, The question of DIY/Community shops banding together to enact greater discounts and easier account getting from major distributors has come up before. Some folks spoke a little about it at Bikebike! last year, and the conclusion a lot of folks came to was that creating such a national account for community bike shops would in effect shift the burden of inventory and the overhead of shipping and staffing and administering such a thing onto the local shops. Basically, "/someone's gotta run the thing./" I would very much be interested in working with anyone who's interested to try and get a coalition of shops or similar to approach distributors or manufacturers even, about getting discounts, bulk rates, etc. On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com <mailto:rigelc@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi, I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts. He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing. I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not. I'm curious about a couple of things. 1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor? It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes. My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital. The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course. I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is. cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org <mailto:TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org <mailto:TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org-- __o _ <,_ Austin Amos (_) / (_) Mobile: 304-545-6505
Connect with me on: Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/austin.amos LinkedIn - http://www.linkedin.com/in/austinamos
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Also worthy of note re: Troy Bike Rescue and this discussion in general is that when we first got started way back in '01 we were helped out tremendously by RIBs in Itahca who ordered all our initial tools and stands through their QBP account. it was an act of mutual aid without really knowing anyone there at the time that is really responsible for helping to get us started. i took a trip out there to pick up the stuff and got a tour of the shop and at the time way before Bike Bike, etc when I had no idea what I was getting started, it was a real informal education that likely unconsciously shaped the future of TBR. thanks RIBs and yay for mutual aid.
andrew
Carolyn Braunius wrote:
Hi,
We have two small collective shops at Troy Bike Rescue, in Troy and Albany. We are also very lucky to have a major distributor's warehouse nearby who are very accommodating with our order needs.
In our shops we heavily emphasize using recycled parts first. We only were really keeping new cables, bearings, and housing in stock.
We had a special situation in Troy, which made us rethink some of our shop policies on not buying new parts for our customers' consumption. The local police began issuing tickets for not having bike bells or lights, to the tune of like 50 bucks in some cases.
We test ordered some bells, lights, and patch kits to see if people would be willing to give us a more specific "suggested donation" for the parts, since the parts were paid for by us, instead of relying on donations. In our case, there was no local bike shop or even a major big box retailer that was easily accessible for people who use bikes as a primary means of transportation to get a bell or a light.
So far, the change has been very successful. We wanted to make sure, if we were providing people with bikes, we were also providing them with the opportunity to get a bell and a light. People have heard about the ticketing, have been coming to us for bells and are very willing to meet our minimum suggested donation.
With our minimum suggested donation, we try to cover the cost of our purchase, and not undercut the local bike shops to much. So far, this has been cool.
We also let our core staff order stuff when we order from the distributor. No one is paid at our shops, so it is a small reward for a group of very dedicated people. Of course, this is about 10-12 people for two shops, so it isn't to much of an onerous task. Each person is responsible for looking at the catalog, writing down all the relevant information, and then making sure the items are in stock at the local supplier before we order.
Carolyn www.troybikerescue.org
"When shall we live if not now?" - M.F.K. Fisher
--- On *Thu, 8/6/09, rachael spiewak /rachael@sopobikes.org/* wrote:
From: rachael spiewak <rachael@sopobikes.org> Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model To: "The Think Tank" <thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 6:53 AM We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall. We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing. This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads. Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com </mc/compose?to=rigelc@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi, I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts. He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing. I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not. I'm curious about a couple of things. 1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor? It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes. My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital. The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course. I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is. cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org -- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org <http://www.sopobikes.org> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Our shop is close by a bicycle manufacturer that, like all manufacturers (not to be confused with builders), sources their bikes through china. He loves the non-profit bike shop model and is willing to _give_ us the extra space in the containers he gets from china. So the thought at this point is:
- Make a list and get quotes on sourcing cables, housing, tires, tubes,
7-speed shifters, tools, and other things. 2) See if the profit savings is high enough over QBP to make it worth the trouble. 3) Determine logistics. 4) Determine business plan. 3) Determine the spoiled and entitled percentage, aka how many people would expect things at 0% margin and 100% support.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
The mission of the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Bicycle Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:44 AM, andrew lynn anyone@breathingplanet.netwrote:
Also worthy of note re: Troy Bike Rescue and this discussion in general is that when we first got started way back in '01 we were helped out tremendously by RIBs in Itahca who ordered all our initial tools and stands through their QBP account. it was an act of mutual aid without really knowing anyone there at the time that is really responsible for helping to get us started. i took a trip out there to pick up the stuff and got a tour of the shop and at the time way before Bike Bike, etc when I had no idea what I was getting started, it was a real informal education that likely unconsciously shaped the future of TBR. thanks RIBs and yay for mutual aid.
andrew
Carolyn Braunius wrote:
Hi,
We have two small collective shops at Troy Bike Rescue, in Troy and Albany. We are also very lucky to have a major distributor's warehouse nearby who are very accommodating with our order needs.
In our shops we heavily emphasize using recycled parts first. We only were really keeping new cables, bearings, and housing in stock.
We had a special situation in Troy, which made us rethink some of our shop policies on not buying new parts for our customers' consumption. The local police began issuing tickets for not having bike bells or lights, to the tune of like 50 bucks in some cases.
We test ordered some bells, lights, and patch kits to see if people would be willing to give us a more specific "suggested donation" for the parts, since the parts were paid for by us, instead of relying on donations. In our case, there was no local bike shop or even a major big box retailer that was easily accessible for people who use bikes as a primary means of transportation to get a bell or a light.
So far, the change has been very successful. We wanted to make sure, if we were providing people with bikes, we were also providing them with the opportunity to get a bell and a light. People have heard about the ticketing, have been coming to us for bells and are very willing to meet our minimum suggested donation.
With our minimum suggested donation, we try to cover the cost of our purchase, and not undercut the local bike shops to much. So far, this has been cool.
We also let our core staff order stuff when we order from the distributor. No one is paid at our shops, so it is a small reward for a group of very dedicated people. Of course, this is about 10-12 people for two shops, so it isn't to much of an onerous task. Each person is responsible for looking at the catalog, writing down all the relevant information, and then making sure the items are in stock at the local supplier before we order.
Carolyn www.troybikerescue.org
"When shall we live if not now?" - M.F.K. Fisher
--- On *Thu, 8/6/09, rachael spiewak /rachael@sopobikes.org/* wrote:
From: rachael spiewak rachael@sopobikes.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 6:53 AM
We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall.
We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing.
This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads.
Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com /mc/compose?to=rigelc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at asmaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollarsworth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not. I'm curious about a couple of things. 1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor? It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes. My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital. The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit thatcould act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is. cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org http://www.sopobikes.org
Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm
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-- andrew lynn | media worker | troy, ny http://www.breathingplanet.net http://www.troybikerescue.org http://www.mediasanctuary.org http://flickr.com/photos/breathingplanet
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In canada, the need for a community operated distibution network is much needed.
I have been frozen out of accounts with big distributors because of our close proximity to other bike shops. I was even thinking about creating a mail box outside of our city to take on bigger distributors...thus your idea of a community operated distro.
We send out about 3k a month to local Qubec based distro such as Damco, and Babac, even a West Coast distro wants our orders...Asama.
Creating a go to for up and coming community shops is a must. We need to make accessibility to basic parts and tools a priority for small community initiatives in Canada, America and the United Mexico.
Geoffrey Bike Pirates Toronto, Canada
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Jonathan Morrison < jonathan.morrison@gmail.com> wrote:
Our shop is close by a bicycle manufacturer that, like all manufacturers (not to be confused with builders), sources their bikes through china. He loves the non-profit bike shop model and is willing to _give_ us the extra space in the containers he gets from china. So the thought at this point is:
- Make a list and get quotes on sourcing cables, housing, tires, tubes,
7-speed shifters, tools, and other things. 2) See if the profit savings is high enough over QBP to make it worth the trouble. 3) Determine logistics. 4) Determine business plan. 3) Determine the spoiled and entitled percentage, aka how many people would expect things at 0% margin and 100% support.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
The mission of the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Bicycle Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:44 AM, andrew lynn anyone@breathingplanet.netwrote:
Also worthy of note re: Troy Bike Rescue and this discussion in general is that when we first got started way back in '01 we were helped out tremendously by RIBs in Itahca who ordered all our initial tools and stands through their QBP account. it was an act of mutual aid without really knowing anyone there at the time that is really responsible for helping to get us started. i took a trip out there to pick up the stuff and got a tour of the shop and at the time way before Bike Bike, etc when I had no idea what I was getting started, it was a real informal education that likely unconsciously shaped the future of TBR. thanks RIBs and yay for mutual aid.
andrew
Carolyn Braunius wrote:
Hi,
We have two small collective shops at Troy Bike Rescue, in Troy and Albany. We are also very lucky to have a major distributor's warehouse nearby who are very accommodating with our order needs.
In our shops we heavily emphasize using recycled parts first. We only were really keeping new cables, bearings, and housing in stock.
We had a special situation in Troy, which made us rethink some of our shop policies on not buying new parts for our customers' consumption. The local police began issuing tickets for not having bike bells or lights, to the tune of like 50 bucks in some cases.
We test ordered some bells, lights, and patch kits to see if people would be willing to give us a more specific "suggested donation" for the parts, since the parts were paid for by us, instead of relying on donations. In our case, there was no local bike shop or even a major big box retailer that was easily accessible for people who use bikes as a primary means of transportation to get a bell or a light.
So far, the change has been very successful. We wanted to make sure, if we were providing people with bikes, we were also providing them with the opportunity to get a bell and a light. People have heard about the ticketing, have been coming to us for bells and are very willing to meet our minimum suggested donation.
With our minimum suggested donation, we try to cover the cost of our purchase, and not undercut the local bike shops to much. So far, this has been cool.
We also let our core staff order stuff when we order from the distributor. No one is paid at our shops, so it is a small reward for a group of very dedicated people. Of course, this is about 10-12 people for two shops, so it isn't to much of an onerous task. Each person is responsible for looking at the catalog, writing down all the relevant information, and then making sure the items are in stock at the local supplier before we order.
Carolyn www.troybikerescue.org
"When shall we live if not now?" - M.F.K. Fisher
--- On *Thu, 8/6/09, rachael spiewak /rachael@sopobikes.org/* wrote:
From: rachael spiewak rachael@sopobikes.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 6:53 AM
We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall.
We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing.
This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads.
Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com /mc/compose?to=rigelc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at asmaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary toadminister and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not. I'm curious about a couple of things. 1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor? It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes. My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital. The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticismsof the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything inmy archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org </mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org> To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org http://www.sopobikes.org
Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- andrew lynn | media worker | troy, ny http://www.breathingplanet.net http://www.troybikerescue.org http://www.mediasanctuary.org http://flickr.com/photos/breathingplanet
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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This sounds very interesting I have a few days off and I will:
Get that Marin Titanium on Craigs List For $1800 Write up my thoughts and make some phone contacts to the folks in these emails I want to make this work Stop me if you think it won't.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Jonathan Morrisonjonathan.morrison@gmail.com wrote:
Our shop is close by a bicycle manufacturer that, like all manufacturers (not to be confused with builders), sources their bikes through china. He loves the non-profit bike shop model and is willing to _give_ us the extra space in the containers he gets from china. So the thought at this point is:
1) Make a list and get quotes on sourcing cables, housing, tires, tubes, 7-speed shifters, tools, and other things. 2) See if the profit savings is high enough over QBP to make it worth the trouble. 3) Determine logistics. 4) Determine business plan. 3) Determine the spoiled and entitled percentage, aka how many people would expect things at 0% margin and 100% support. Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
The mission of the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective is to promote cycling as an effective and sustainable form of transportation and as a cornerstone of a cleaner, healthier, and safer society. The Bicycle Collective provides refurbished bicycles and educational programs to the community, focusing on children and lower income households.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:44 AM, andrew lynn anyone@breathingplanet.net wrote:
Also worthy of note re: Troy Bike Rescue and this discussion in general is that when we first got started way back in '01 we were helped out tremendously by RIBs in Itahca who ordered all our initial tools and stands through their QBP account. it was an act of mutual aid without really knowing anyone there at the time that is really responsible for helping to get us started. i took a trip out there to pick up the stuff and got a tour of the shop and at the time way before Bike Bike, etc when I had no idea what I was getting started, it was a real informal education that likely unconsciously shaped the future of TBR. thanks RIBs and yay for mutual aid.
andrew
Carolyn Braunius wrote:
Hi,
We have two small collective shops at Troy Bike Rescue, in Troy and Albany. We are also very lucky to have a major distributor's warehouse nearby who are very accommodating with our order needs.
In our shops we heavily emphasize using recycled parts first. We only were really keeping new cables, bearings, and housing in stock.
We had a special situation in Troy, which made us rethink some of our shop policies on not buying new parts for our customers' consumption. The local police began issuing tickets for not having bike bells or lights, to the tune of like 50 bucks in some cases.
We test ordered some bells, lights, and patch kits to see if people would be willing to give us a more specific "suggested donation" for the parts, since the parts were paid for by us, instead of relying on donations. In our case, there was no local bike shop or even a major big box retailer that was easily accessible for people who use bikes as a primary means of transportation to get a bell or a light.
So far, the change has been very successful. We wanted to make sure, if we were providing people with bikes, we were also providing them with the opportunity to get a bell and a light. People have heard about the ticketing, have been coming to us for bells and are very willing to meet our minimum suggested donation.
With our minimum suggested donation, we try to cover the cost of our purchase, and not undercut the local bike shops to much. So far, this has been cool.
We also let our core staff order stuff when we order from the distributor. No one is paid at our shops, so it is a small reward for a group of very dedicated people. Of course, this is about 10-12 people for two shops, so it isn't to much of an onerous task. Each person is responsible for looking at the catalog, writing down all the relevant information, and then making sure the items are in stock at the local supplier before we order.
Carolyn www.troybikerescue.org
"When shall we live if not now?" - M.F.K. Fisher
--- On *Thu, 8/6/09, rachael spiewak /rachael@sopobikes.org/* wrote:
From: rachael spiewak rachael@sopobikes.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Distributors and interacting with the profit model To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 6:53 AM
We have an account with Hawley. Our minimum order is $50, and we only buy things necessary for operating a repair shop (no retail items, nothing for people to take away unless it's installed on the bike as part of a repair; generally tools and consumables costing less than $5 apiece only). They required from us up front that we have liability insurance and a store front, and maybe a few other things that I can't recall.
We talked about buying benefits for volunteers, and we decided it create too much confusing administrative work, and volunteers have plenty of access to nice donations and other benefits anyway. And we like to send folks to the for profit shops for parts when we don't have them because that helps us maintain good relationships with the shops. Plus, our mission is about affordable repair by way tool sharing, not by way of bulk parts purchasing.
This fiscal year to date, we've spent a little more than $5000 on shop supplies, mostly on Hawley orders, and the rest split between hardware stores and emergency trips to for profit bike shops. We surpassed our supplies fundraising goals with some grant money, so we splurged a little on some tap and die sets, which have pretty much paid for themselves in salvaged bottom bracket shells and fork threads.
Hope this helps! Rachael Sopo Bikes//ATL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Rigel Christian <rigelc@gmail.com /mc/compose?to=rigelc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with someone who worked at a smaller distributor today. I had called in order to try and cultivate a business relationship for our local co-op, which is in desperate need of tools and consumable parts like bearings and cables. He mentioned that a lot more co-ops were inquiring about accounts.
He also told me the reasons why co-op/DIY shops were problematic from his end, and it's a reasonable criticism from that perspective. Individually, we simply dont do the volume of business necessary to be attractive to a business interest. The time necessary to administer and verify an account that does maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of business a month for the higher traffic shops kind of burns your profit margins, which are not large at that level. distributors count on reliable, volume business to stay afloat, and take a smaller cut of profit on the assumption that that's the type of business theyll be doing.
I've know that some of the longer running co-ops and collectives have relationships with distributors, but clearly many of the newer ones do not.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
1) Does your collective have a relationship with a parts distributor? 2) Regardless of the answer to #1, roughly how much does your shop spend on tools/consumables/things-that-one-would-get-from-a-distributor?
It seems to me that in the first few years of a co-op/nonprofit/collective situation, lots or most of these organizations leverage either existing ties to, or the goodwill of LBSes.
My suspicion is that in some edge cases, where the bike or DIY culture isnt all that strong, this can be a fairly significant issue for a fledgling operation, in terms of both finances and social capital.
The idea that i'm trying to push here is that of a sort of buyers club. Disregarding for the moment the perfectly valid criticisms of the legal structure of 501(c)3s, if there was a nonprofit that could act as a go-between for a parts distributor and a number of regional shops, that would serve the needs of both the for-profit distributors AND the co-op shops. distributors wouldnt have to deal with as much volatility from taking on co-ops as charity cases, and co-ops banding together could drive the price of a lot of the most necessary consumables and parts down even further than their current distributor relationships can offer. in the ideal case, of course.
I would appreciate any input people have. I dont know if this has been suggested before (I suspect it has), but i didnt see anything in my archive of the last year or so. If I'm totally off base in my assumptions I'd like to know that too, where i went wrong, and what the real deal is.
cheers. _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Sopo Bicycle Cooperative 404-425-9989 www.sopobikes.org http://www.sopobikes.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Hours of operation: Tues, Wed, & Thurs 7 pm - 10 pm Sat & Sun 2 pm - 6 pm
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_______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org /mc/compose?to=TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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-- andrew lynn | media worker | troy, ny http://www.breathingplanet.net http://www.troybikerescue.org http://www.mediasanctuary.org http://flickr.com/photos/breathingplanet
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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participants (14)
-
andrew lynn -
Austin Amos -
Carolyn Braunius -
Doug Franz -
Geoffrey B -
Jamie Cowen -
Jonathan Morrison -
joshua muir -
Patrick VDT -
R Points -
rachael spiewak -
Rigel Christian -
Urban Bike Project Wilmington, DE -
veganboyjosh＠gmail.com