Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
Kyle, I will stand in solidarity with everything you just said. It's
refreshing to hear someone frame the idea of white and class privilege
in such an elegant but accessible way. Mainly I just wanted to voice my
support because this is a tough discussion to have but an important one.
To Bruce's comment about women and bike shops, I'd have to say that you
are using a symptom of patriarchy (few women not in bike shops) to
justify that outcome. For an analogy: if there was no bike rack or pole
or anything to lock your bike up to outside of a new Thai restaurant,
should the owner of the shop assume that you not eating there because it
"you as a cyclist innately don't like Thai food" or because there is
barrier to entry, not having a place to put your ride? If he assumes
it's because cyclists don't like Thai food, he'll never put a bike rack
out front and you'll never eat there. Maybe that's a goofy analogy but
maybe it's still relevant. We actually had this discussion with a couple
of women that frequently patronize the shop when we asked them if they
would be interested in a womens only night. Their response was pretty
interesting. They said that it would be nice so that new women patrons
could become comfortable in a new setting with other women but then once
they felt confident in the basics they wouldn't have any problem going
to regular shop hours because the wouldn't feel like they were relying
on men volunteers for everything. I think that makes a lot of sense.
As to the folks that get uncomfortable about this and feel they are
being accused of "being a racist" this examination of privilege isn't
about personal prejudice but rather about institutional racism, the
systems that have permeated American society from it's inception. Wage
and wealth inequities based on race, access to services based on race,
gentrification, unfair employment practices, structures of the economy,
allocation of democratic rights, these are all part of institutional
racism that is at the core of white privilege. Really it's about
admitting that it exists, owning it and trying to find ways to use it to
a mutual benefit of everyone involved (organizing a community bike shop
and empowering those communities without white male privilege) and that
is light years more progressive and effective than than going on about
how your not a racist and your oppressed too (not saying anyone here has
done that but it's a common response from liberal folks).
I think paying wage is a great way to enable marginalize peoples to
participate in Com. Bike shops and I'm sure there are many more, we need
to find those too! Keep the ideas coming!
Andrew
FM Community Bicycle Workshop
I've been lurking on this list for the past few months and I have to say, it's been BY FAR the most intelligent, provocative, and interesting set of discussions I've seen in a while. Which is great for me, since I have a new book coming out soon, "Nowtopia," that has a whole chapter on "Outlaw Bicycling" and in it is a subsection on the DIY bikeshop phenomenon... and I hope to meet many of you in person as I wander around the country in the next year doing readings... The discussion here on privilege has been really smart. I really think Kyle's last post was remarkable, eloquent, and went way beyond the tired limits this conversation tends to get stuck in... In spite of that, I have a different take on the argument, and have a short-ish section of my book that addresses it. I'm taking the liberty of posting it here. It is coming out in a couple of months via AK Press, and you are invited to come and beat me up in person at any of a number of appearances that are already scheduled... I'll post that later if anyone wants, but you can get it from my website (url below) at your convenience... I only regret that the book is already going to print and I cannot rewrite it to respond to your incredibly insightful commentaries!... dang it! (sorry the footnotes are lost in this post, so ignore those numbers)...
*The Privilege Trap
*As the sectarian politics of the late sixties and seventies, and the identity politics of the eighties, have sadly proved, celebrating otherness may be useful as self-therapy, but it is relatively useless as political strategy.* —Steven Duncombe7
*That which is oppressed and resists is not only a who but a what. It is not only particular groups of people who are oppressed (women, indigenous, peasants, factory workers, and so on), but also (and perhaps especially) particular aspects of the personality of all of us: our self-confidence, our sexuality, our playfulness, our creativity.* —John Holloway8
Everyone has many reasons to contest this world, and radical politics must start from that recognition. Given the general speedup and intensification of work, the breakdown of communities and families, we might imagine a general revolt brewing among people subjected to these dynamics. But political action has not yet emerged to protest these social processes. A great shift did occur in political organizing after the 1960s, which moved the focus from broad critiques of power, wealth, and economic injustice to focus on race, gender, and sexual preference. Plenty of grassroots efforts have continued to contest the condition of public schools, local environmental justice, food safety, etc., but the sense of a wide political opposition has largely crumbled.
This saga has been analyzed a lot, but what has been overlooked is the way the concept of "privilege" has come to dominate so much thinking among politically active people. Born from the numerous divisions fracturing society along race and gender lines, as well as the extreme stratification of wealth and poverty, the discourse on "privilege" has been an attempt to come to grips with the differences among people in political movements and to challenge the power imbalances that map those differences.
We can trace its origins to the important emergence of anti-racist organizing, especially among white activists. This was urgently needed to address the reproduction of racist and sexist behaviors in left movements from the anti-Vietnam War effort to the burgeoning environmental movements. It started out as a reasonable and important repudiation of a common-enough white and/or middle class sense of entitlement, which manifested in ignorance of people who didn't already have the same social rights or economic comforts as the white and/or middle class. The critique of privilege, usually white or male, was meant to reveal the embedded structural power that some populations hold over others. Like class analysis, such sweeping analyses tend to gloss over specific experiences that contradict the larger argument. (Obviously there are plenty of men, and plenty of white people, who do not have any real power in their lives; the relative advantage of being male or white in a predominantly racist and patriarchal society doesn't always translate into specific experiences—or advantages—for particular individuals.) By equating the uneven distribution of systemic social power with individual experiences a lot of potential political alliances have been undercut. In other words, some activists who foreground this critique have had a frustrating tendency to reject the participation of white people and/or men simply because of their status, independent of the specific conditions of their lives, their ideas, or their behaviors.
The discourse around privilege in everyday terms shifted from targeting an oblivious state of mind, to targeting a measurable standard of living and/or a discernable set of rights. Confusion about who is "privileged" and who qualifies as a legitimate political subject was sowed by this shift. Many white radicals feel pressure to be self-critical as the test of their own political legitimacy, which has served to further confuse where political agency can legitimately arise.
I have heard many stories among white activists, especially males, who have felt shut up not for their ideas but for their status. Some argue that this is just, representing an historic turning of the tables, but the moments where this table-turning is empowering are far outnumbered by those where it leads to a numbing paralysis imposed by a cloud of guilt and recrimination. Permaculture activist and anti-globalization Green Bloc organizer Erik Ohlsen tells his story:
I*'ve been programmed as an activist [so that] when I hear "class," privilege and race come to mind… I've never been hungry or poor… I come from a middle-class family and I'm trying to be working-class…At times people get down on activists who are "privileged white males"… I got shut up because I'm a white male… There are a lot of us who come from these suburban middle-class families who have become conscious to all these issues and want to make a difference… I value the conversation about classism and racism in the activist communities—it's important to challenge people's programmed ideologies and programmed cultural behaviors, but not to say I'm better and you're worse… It's just about acknowledging it, and then saying "let's work together to make this better."9*
Emphasizing "privilege" implicitly concedes scarcity as the norm. Once the political meaning of "privilege" shifts from an oblivious state of mind to material comfort or basic rights, the rightful expectation of generalized well-being is flipped over. Instead of insisting on one's missing social and economic rights, the political energy focuses instead on attacking other people who appear to enjoy them already. This unconsciously reinforces a zero-sum dynamic; if some people gain others must lose. But isn't one goal of social transformation to raise everyone to a basic standard of comfort and equality?
Instead of exploring our shared predicament and looking for commonalities, the emphasis on "privilege" tends to focus on identifying impediments to social change in ongoing racism first and foremost. The overwhelming stratification of wealth is profoundly unfair, too. But by holding responsible vast numbers of people who depend on their wages and salaries and are relatively powerless (albeit not presently poor), radicals reinforce divisions among people who will need to unite.
*A politics of affinity… is not about abandoning identification as such; it is about abandoning the fantasy that fixed, stable identities are possible and desirable, that one identity is better than another, that superior identities deserve more of the good and less of the bad that a social order has to offer… In the social factory everyone becomes a worker, which deprivileges the point of material production; but at the same time, everyone becomes a worker, which reimposes an expanded, but still delimited, conception of the working class as the identity behind all identifications.* —Richard J.F. Day10
For many politically active people, the attack on racism and inequality took the form of self-examination and too often, endless self-criticism that left people demoralized and demobilized, and highly mistrustful of each other. At its worst extremes the grassroots campaign to uproot oppression in daily life led to a neo-Maoist focus on identity and heredity as the defining qualities of any individual, rather than actual behavior or thinking. Once progressives shifted their rhetoric to attacking "white privilege," the prospects for thinking cooperatively about political alliances were seriously diminished, because if you weren't inclined to make white racism the lead issue, you were branded, either directly or implicitly, racist.
Because of this confusion, leftists can overlook or even oppose worthy currents of subversion when they erupt from educated, or affluent, or even just white people. The preconception that oppositional political subjectivity "belongs" to "real workers" or the "truly oppressed" is based on political assumptions rooted in 20th century paradigms. The contemporary discourse on "privilege" has had the perverse effect of devaluing whole segments of political opposition ("It's just a bunch of middle-class white people"). It has also tended to reinforce a pernicious tendency to hierarchy in this society by continuing to rank people by status.
In Atlanta, Rachel Spiewak is a cofounder of the Sopo Bicycle Cooperative and promoter of Critical Mass rides in that car-centric southern city. In May 2006 she attended a Bicycle Organization Organization Project (BOOP) conference in Milwaukee where she sat through an "anti-oppression" training (which she found offensive) conducted by colleagues from the all-white Boulder, Colorado area.
I*n Atlanta we know that skin color does not dictate consciousness… I don't care about awareness or attitude. I care about what people are doing. Are people treating each other with respect? Are people treating each other like we all have the same amount of worth? Are people making environmentally responsible choices? Do all people have access to doing these things? The change I want to see in the world is in the "doing." * *The golden rule is not about who or what you are, and it's not about consciousness. It's about what you DO. If we lay the groundwork for being able to DO these things, i.e. we reorient material culture, then we will see shifts in social culture. There will be more opportunities to build community and observe the full humanity of each other, despite socialization that dictates who counts less as a person and why. The ideological shift will follow, quietly and slowly, and we'll take it for granted. * —Rachel Spiewak11
Spiewak's comments show how the overemphasis on racial politics and politics of privilege can confine political activity to the level of the individual and focus on perfecting personal behavior rather than actively doing work that attacks the capitalist system or even systemic discrimination. The ongoing legacies of black slavery, Indian genocide, and a century of imperial wars against "chinks, gooks, japs, niggers, injuns, hadji's," etc., haunt radical politics as much as they haunt American society in general. Finding a way forward without negating this barbaric past and its continuing influence in the present, is a task that continues to elude radicals. The identity politics and anti-racist organizing developed over the past decades have been important but they have not solved the problem. These movements have been and still are useful to bring attention to the oblivious or semi-conscious discrimination enacted within radical alternative movements, but it is all too easy for the emphasis on so-called "privilege" to seriously hamper a clear appraisal of the enormous similarities faced by people at many different locations of this stratified and hierarchical society. As Richard Day puts it, "If the multitudes are ever to come together in any way, this will be the result of a long process of building solidarity and dealing with differences and structured oppressions that plague movements for radical alternatives as much as they do the political mainstream…"12
One task that this book has set for itself is to break down the idea of the "middle class," especially the notion that people so designated have a life radically different than those who supposedly fall below the threshold. So-called "middle class" life is not "privileged." Granted, the material well-being of most people defined as middle class is far better than a huge majority of the world population. But material comfort should be considered a universal human right, rather than a privilege, and anyway, "material comfort" must be carefully and democratically re-thought in light of our increased biological and ecological awareness.
Similarly, it is problematic to refer to the freedom to act, or a sense of personal agency, or unfettered access to public spaces as examples of "white privilege," as some do. These qualities are aspects of a normal daily life that should be taken for granted by everyone. That they aren't is a reprehensible remnant of the racist roots of our society, but the path forward is not to attack or suspend them as undue privileges, but to extend them to all without qualification. Our rhetoric should reflect our commitment to extending rights and freedoms to everyone, not to attacking the population that seems to enjoy rights and freedoms relatively unhindered. (The perception that white people or men have the ability to live freely is itself highly exaggerated, in my opinion, since this society only gives a tiny minority anything approaching real freedom.) Nowtopians are engaged in practical projects that depend on new relationships around leadership, skill-sharing, and power dynamics within groups, practices that are probably more useful to combat racial and gender inequality than dogmatic doctrines of privilege.
In the new communities of Nowtopians we consistently encounter a range of people from affluent to poor, often—but not always—in multiracial constellations. It is common to find that some of the people making the new world today are white and sometimes well-paid. If radical political organizing continues to use a blanket rule of "identity" over behavior, it will reinforce the existing divisions that already keep people fighting each other more than fighting the system. In embracing a new politics of work, outside of wage-labor, Nowtopians lay the foundation for new alliances across the old boundaries, on the basis of practical aspirations and activities.
from "Nowtopia: How pirate programmers, outlaw bicyclists and vacant-lot gardeners are inventing the future today" by Chris Carlsson, AK Press 2008 (pub date: May 1)
So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such... http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are ones that have been done for those who collect "classic American bikes(1930 to 1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org wrote: So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such... http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling
price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
that's just my point, it's requires a huge pool of knowledge to accurately price bikes. More than I have, and much more than the average collective member. Using the "halfing method" assumes that you know the original price of the bike. Plus the "art" of the whole thing in my mind means pricing can become relatively arbitrary. We've had a few situations where two people with similar amounts of knowledge about this type of thing priced bikes at wildly different prices. If you look on craigslist in the baltimore area people are selling bikes at crazy prices. Sometimes someone will be asking 300 for a mongoose mountain bike from walmart, and then the next add will be 25 bucks for a classic road bike. Since using bikes as transport and not as recreation is a relatively new idea in this area of the country there isn't a standard for fair market value and it's hard to come up with a fair price by looking at what other bikes are selling for in the area. Also I find that E-bay prices are often artificially inflated. It makes it hard for us to figure out prices for the things that we sell.
So what I'm wondering is, is there enough demand these days to approach someone in the publishing world to create a resource that compiles at least the original prices(taking inflation into account) of bikes we all are seeing daily. Or is there a good resource out there already to get that kind of information? If someone really needs a bike and can't volunteer for it we make sure they can afford it, but generally we don't want to undersell, because that can lead to flipping bikes and also selling bikes is how we pay the bills.... -beth velocipede bike project baltimore, md
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are ones that have been done for those who collect "classic American bikes(1930 to 1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org wrote: So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such... http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
At re-CYCLES (in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) we try to take a practical approach to pricing by balancing the need to keep our prices affordable while still paying our rent. A couple of years ago we adopted a 2 pronged system. Nicer bikes (basically those without stamped steel brakes) are completely overhauled (stripped to the frame) and priced between $80 and $200 (with the odd exceptional case priced higher) while the cheap bikes that don't need too much work are tuned up and sold as-is for between $20 and $100. This has kept our average bike price in the $65 range for the last 2 years.
We have actually been making a steady profit for the last few years (which is a bit uncomfortable for our non-profit organization). We are currently working on acquiring a larger shop to meet demand and are hoping to increase our throughput to cover the increased cost while holding our bike prices at the current levels for the foreseeable future.
Chris
--- Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org wrote:
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling
price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability,
rarity.
Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
that's just my point, it's requires a huge pool of knowledge to accurately price bikes. More than I have, and much more than the average collective member. Using the "halfing method" assumes that you know the original price of the bike. Plus the "art" of the whole thing in my mind means pricing can become relatively arbitrary. We've had a few situations where two people with similar amounts of knowledge about this type of thing priced bikes at wildly different prices. If you look on craigslist in the baltimore area people are selling bikes at crazy prices. Sometimes someone will be asking 300 for a mongoose mountain bike from walmart, and then the next add will be 25 bucks for a classic road bike. Since using bikes as transport and not as recreation is a relatively new idea in this area of the country there isn't a standard for fair market value and it's hard to come up with a fair price by looking at what other bikes are selling for in the area. Also I find that E-bay prices are often artificially inflated. It makes it hard for us to figure out prices for the things that we sell.
So what I'm wondering is, is there enough demand these days to approach someone in the publishing world to create a resource that compiles at least the original prices(taking inflation into account) of bikes we all are seeing daily. Or is there a good resource out there already to get that kind of information? If someone really needs a bike and can't volunteer for it we make sure they can afford it, but generally we don't want to undersell, because that can lead to flipping bikes and also selling bikes is how we pay the bills.... -beth velocipede bike project baltimore, md
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are
ones
that have been done for those who collect "classic American
bikes(1930 to
1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new
selling
price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability,
rarity.
Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org wrote: So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here
in
baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and
how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly
different
prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources)
and
someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market
to be
able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would
price
for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts
cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into
the
environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he
may be
able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand
to
fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of
machine or
technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been
thinking alot
lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing
things
like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda
as
cleaners instead of bleach and such...
http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in
posts)
Chris Wells (Head Mechanic & Email Handler)
re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op 112 Nelson St. Ottawa
Open 6pm-9pm Tuesdays & Thursdays
info@re-cycles.ca http://www.re-cycles.ca/
No shame in making a profit. It assures your continuance and gives you the means to fulfil your mission! Angelo
"info@re-cycles.ca" info@re-cycles.ca wrote: At re-CYCLES (in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) we try to take a practical approach to pricing by balancing the need to keep our prices affordable while still paying our rent. A couple of years ago we adopted a 2 pronged system. Nicer bikes (basically those without stamped steel brakes) are completely overhauled (stripped to the frame) and priced between $80 and $200 (with the odd exceptional case priced higher) while the cheap bikes that don't need too much work are tuned up and sold as-is for between $20 and $100. This has kept our average bike price in the $65 range for the last 2 years.
We have actually been making a steady profit for the last few years (which is a bit uncomfortable for our non-profit organization). We are currently working on acquiring a larger shop to meet demand and are hoping to increase our throughput to cover the increased cost while holding our bike prices at the current levels for the foreseeable future.
Chris
--- Velocipede Bike Project wrote:
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling
price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability,
rarity.
Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
that's just my point, it's requires a huge pool of knowledge to accurately price bikes. More than I have, and much more than the average collective member. Using the "halfing method" assumes that you know the original price of the bike. Plus the "art" of the whole thing in my mind means pricing can become relatively arbitrary. We've had a few situations where two people with similar amounts of knowledge about this type of thing priced bikes at wildly different prices. If you look on craigslist in the baltimore area people are selling bikes at crazy prices. Sometimes someone will be asking 300 for a mongoose mountain bike from walmart, and then the next add will be 25 bucks for a classic road bike. Since using bikes as transport and not as recreation is a relatively new idea in this area of the country there isn't a standard for fair market value and it's hard to come up with a fair price by looking at what other bikes are selling for in the area. Also I find that E-bay prices are often artificially inflated. It makes it hard for us to figure out prices for the things that we sell.
So what I'm wondering is, is there enough demand these days to approach someone in the publishing world to create a resource that compiles at least the original prices(taking inflation into account) of bikes we all are seeing daily. Or is there a good resource out there already to get that kind of information? If someone really needs a bike and can't volunteer for it we make sure they can afford it, but generally we don't want to undersell, because that can lead to flipping bikes and also selling bikes is how we pay the bills.... -beth velocipede bike project baltimore, md
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are
ones
that have been done for those who collect "classic American
bikes(1930 to
1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new
selling
price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability,
rarity.
Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
Velocipede Bike Project wrote: So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here
in
baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and
how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly
different
prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources)
and
someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market
to be
able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would
price
for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts
cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into
the
environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he
may be
able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand
to
fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of
machine or
technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been
thinking alot
lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing
things
like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda
as
cleaners instead of bleach and such...
http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in
posts)
Chris Wells (Head Mechanic & Email Handler)
re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op 112 Nelson St. Ottawa
Open 6pm-9pm Tuesdays & Thursdays
info@re-cycles.ca http://www.re-cycles.ca/ _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
- The Kelley Blue Book for cars is also affected by region too. We have a
unique issue because to keep our shop from getting too full we sell the bikes for next to nothing, or give them away to people who have a letter from a good will agency, just so they don't start stacking up. Working Bikes in Chicago is a great example of an organization who makes their margins in quantity.
Would a Bike Prices Wiki work? Seems like publishing something wouldn't keep up with trends, and, since its used bikes, wouldn't have the pay off in advertising, etc. that an auto blue book has.
Someone could post a bike and let everyone go at it. Comments, discussion and regional pricing included. Cites to local shops, craigslist, and esteemed commentators encouraged.
And, as much as this would help us by shortening those pricing arguments, it would be an even greater help to the bike illiterate who search craigslist and don't know whether they're getting ripped off, so don't buy a bike or get sold on way too much bike at an aggressive LBS.
Would people - us & the rest of the cycling community - be willing to do the maintenance? Or would the resource be irrelevant since we all have different priorities, business models, & audiences?
- Colin
On Feb 10, 2008 12:30 PM, Jonathan Morrison jonathan@slcbikecollective.org wrote:
- The Kelley Blue Book for cars is also affected by region too. We have
a unique issue because to keep our shop from getting too full we sell the bikes for next to nothing, or give them away to people who have a letter from a good will agency, just so they don't start stacking up. Working Bikes in Chicago is a great example of an organization who makes their margins in quantity.
-- Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/ On Feb 10, 2008 12:17 AM, Angelo Coletta ruotangelo@yahoo.com wrote:
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are ones that have been done for those who collect "classic American bikes(1930 to 1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
*Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org* wrote:
So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such...
http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
colin,
i think that;s a much better approach than a printed book. with enough entries/feedback/participants, it could be really useful.
On Feb 10, 2008 1:35 PM, Colin Dixon, Phoenix Bikes < colin.phoenixbikes@gmail.com> wrote:
Would a Bike Prices Wiki work? Seems like publishing something wouldn't keep up with trends, and, since its used bikes, wouldn't have the pay off in advertising, etc. that an auto blue book has.
Someone could post a bike and let everyone go at it. Comments, discussion and regional pricing included. Cites to local shops, craigslist, and esteemed commentators encouraged.
And, as much as this would help us by shortening those pricing arguments, it would be an even greater help to the bike illiterate who search craigslist and don't know whether they're getting ripped off, so don't buy a bike or get sold on way too much bike at an aggressive LBS.
Would people - us & the rest of the cycling community - be willing to do the maintenance? Or would the resource be irrelevant since we all have different priorities, business models, & audiences?
- Colin
On Feb 10, 2008 12:30 PM, Jonathan Morrison < jonathan@slcbikecollective.org> wrote:
- The Kelley Blue Book for cars is also affected by region too. We
have a unique issue because to keep our shop from getting too full we sell the bikes for next to nothing, or give them away to people who have a letter from a good will agency, just so they don't start stacking up. Working Bikes in Chicago is a great example of an organization who makes their margins in quantity.
-- Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/ On Feb 10, 2008 12:17 AM, Angelo Coletta ruotangelo@yahoo.com wrote:
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are ones that have been done for those who collect "classic American bikes(1930 to 1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
*Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org* wrote:
So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such...
http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Interesting idea!! List a cycle ( prefer this term as it covers all configurations) its new price, and its specs, history etc. and let the community appraise it. A person could come to an idea of its market value by averaging and adjusting for regional demand and cost of living. Obviously, value is relative to a buyer's appreciation of cycling and whether the area the item is being sold in has a large cycling community or not, whether the item is in demand or not.
Another idea is the dutch auction where an item is presented with a high price and then the price is dropped gradually. Theoretically, it would sell at market value. Angelo Colin Dixon, Phoenix Bikes" colin.phoenixbikes@gmail.com wrote: Would a Bike Prices Wiki work? Seems like publishing something wouldn't keep up with trends, and, since its used bikes, wouldn't have the pay off in advertising, etc. that an auto blue book has.
Someone could post a bike and let everyone go at it. Comments, discussion and regional pricing included. Cites to local shops, craigslist, and esteemed commentators encouraged.
And, as much as this would help us by shortening those pricing arguments, it would be an even greater help to the bike illiterate who search craigslist and don't know whether they're getting ripped off, so don't buy a bike or get sold on way too much bike at an aggressive LBS.
Would people - us & the rest of the cycling community - be willing to do the maintenance? Or would the resource be irrelevant since we all have different priorities, business models, & audiences?
Colin
On Feb 10, 2008 12:30 PM, Jonathan Morrison jonathan@slcbikecollective.org wrote:
The Kelley Blue Book for cars is also affected by region too. We have a unique issue because to keep our shop from getting too full we sell the bikes for next to nothing, or give them away to people who have a letter from a good will agency, just so they don't start stacking up. Working Bikes in Chicago is a great example of an organization who makes their margins in quantity.
http://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki/index.php?title=Parts_Washers
--
Sincerely,
Jonathan Morrison Executive Director Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective 2312 S. West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84115 w: 801-328-2453 c: 801-688-0183 f: 801-466-3856 www.slcbikecollective.org
Get Addicted to Crank! http://www.slcbikecollective.org/crank/
On Feb 10, 2008 12:17 AM, Angelo Coletta <ruotangelo@yahoo.com> wrote:
While there is no comprehensive pricing book for cycles, there are ones that have been done for those who collect "classic American bikes(1930 to 1960)"
I have used a halfing method for appraisal. $200 was the new selling price; 1yr old $100; 2yr $50.00 and so forth. That is a base line. Then comes the art and the subjective: condition, desirability, rarity. Any up-fitting done? Frame type and size. Component quality. Accessories. All factors that affect value. Also there is the wholesale price and the retail price. That would reflect any labor invested in making the unit saleable.
Hope this helps.
Angelo
Velocipede Bike Project info@velocipedebikeproject.org wrote: So here are two hare brain ideas that have been thrown out here in baltimore and i wanted to get y'alls take on them...
- a bicycle blue book...we were talking about pricing bikes and how
arbitrary it often seems,(often two members will claim wildly different prices with equal authority and citing the same number of sources) and someone mentioned that in this time of the growing bicycle collective/community shop projects there may be enough of a market to be able to approach a publisher about creating a blue book that would price for instance, a 1982 murray...I know this sounds crazy, but I was wondering how crazy was it really....
- Someone approached us recently about a bio friendly parts cleaner.
Apparently it has enzymes that eat oil so less bad stuff going into the environment/less exposure to toxic chemicals ourselves. He said he may be able to get us a machine for free, but it would cost around a grand to fill it up. does anyone have any experience with this kind of machine or technology? Is it worth our time and fundraising? I've been thinking alot lately about ways to make our shop more green friendly by doing things like cutting down on plastic use and using vinegar and baking soda as cleaners instead of bleach and such... http://www.biocircle.com/portal/page?_pageid=73,394253&_dad=portal&_...
what do y'all think? am I crazy? -beth velocipede bike project baltmore, md(hey, try to remember to include your city and shop in posts)
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
There is a chain of used sports equipment consignment shops (Sports Junkies) in Vancouver BC that uses this approach very effectively. They print a price tag that shows the price dropping (I think 10% every 2 weeks). Great because a customer can look at the tag and compute when the item will reach the price they are willing to pay. This lead to a lot of regular customers.
Chris --- Angelo Coletta ruotangelo@yahoo.com wrote:
Another idea is the dutch auction where an item is presented with a high price and then the price is dropped gradually. Theoretically, it would sell at market value. Angelo
Chris Wells (Head Mechanic & Email Handler)
re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op 112 Nelson St. Ottawa
Open 6pm-9pm Tuesdays & Thursdays
info@re-cycles.ca http://www.re-cycles.ca/
Ahoy! Just a quick story which illustrates how bicycling is not just spokes and wheels, but liberation as well.
I was riding in the annual Moonlight Classic ride last summer. for a good portion of the ride I was riding with a young woman named Leah, who is also a triathlete. She had similar politics and was just one of those people who are just great souls all around. Anyway, she gets a flat, luckily right at a rest stop. She is ready to just walk her bike back, as she has not changed a tube. Ever? I still cant believe it! Anyway, I am all ready to be superhero patch tube guy, when we notice a van. COOL, local bike shop is there and gives us a tube. Local bike shop mechanic is there and he is the super alpha burly bald with goatee type, and says he will help in a minute. Do I look like I cant change a tube? Then, a Feminist (said so on her T shirt) from Derailer steps in and shows Leah how to change a tube. She is a much better instructor than I would have been, going step by step patiently, making sure Leah does the work. When she struggles, the alpha male mechanic tries to take over. In a loud and very authoritative voice the Feminist from derailer commands to let her fix it herself. She does, of course and has a happy ride back. Also, the Derailer volunteer gives me a bilingual flyer, which I give to an Immigrant I know, so he can go build a bike. RIGHT ON DERAILER! Art
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:22:54 -0600 From: plan_9@riseup.net To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
Kyle, I will stand in solidarity with everything you just said. It's refreshing to hear someone frame the idea of white and class privilege in such an elegant but accessible way. Mainly I just wanted to voice my support because this is a tough discussion to have but an important one. To Bruce's comment about women and bike shops, I'd have to say that you are using a symptom of patriarchy (few women not in bike shops) to justify that outcome. For an analogy: if there was no bike rack or pole or anything to lock your bike up to outside of a new Thai restaurant, should the owner of the shop assume that you not eating there because it "you as a cyclist innately don't like Thai food" or because there is
barrier to entry, not having a place to put your ride? If he assumes it's because cyclists don't like Thai food, he'll never put a bike rack out front and you'll never eat there. Maybe that's a goofy analogy but maybe it's still relevant. We actually had this discussion with a couple of women that frequently patronize the shop when we asked them if they would be interested in a womens only night. Their response was pretty interesting. They said that it would be nice so that new women patrons could become comfortable in a new setting with other women but then once they felt confident in the basics they wouldn't have any problem going to regular shop hours because the wouldn't feel like they were relying on men volunteers for everything. I think that makes a lot of sense. As to the folks that get uncomfortable about this and feel they are being accused of "being a racist" this examination of privilege isn't about personal prejudice but rather about institutional racism, the systems that have permeated American society from it's inception. Wage and wealth inequities based on race, access to services based on race, gentrification, unfair employment practices, structures of the economy, allocation of democratic rights, these are all part of institutional racism that is at the core of white privilege. Really it's about admitting that it exists, owning it and trying to find ways to use it to a mutual benefit of everyone involved (organizing a community bike shop and empowering those communities without white male privilege) and that is light years more progressive and effective than than going on about how your not a racist and your oppressed too (not saying anyone here has done that but it's a common response from liberal folks). I think paying wage is a great way to enable marginalize peoples to participate in Com. Bike shops and I'm sure there are many more, we need to find those too! Keep the ideas coming! Andrew FM Community Bicycle Workshop _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
participants (9)
-
Andrew Bushaw -
Angelo Coletta -
Chris Carlsson -
CLINTON BIGGS -
Colin Dixon, Phoenix Bikes -
info＠re-cycles.ca -
Jonathan Morrison -
veganboyjosh＠gmail.com -
Velocipede Bike Project