I believe we're in agreement, Joanne. Bicycles are a great tool for recovery. They save money and provide exercise.
From: Joanne Mule
Cash will always be a scarce resource, if one can learn a skill such as building a bike, it makes better use of the non-cash resources. We all have it tough in a tough economy. Even a drug addict can learn to use that skill and make the best of it. Addiction is a difficult habit to break. But outright stealing shows that they have no skill whatsoever nor any desire to right the wrong. Everyone has it rough from time to time. It is what we do during those times that can make us stronger.
From: vernon huffman
First off, we need to recognize that none of us is perfect and each of us has the capacity to do something worthwhile, even if life has been especially rough so far. I'm not here to judge anybody. If you're nice to me and help build the organization, we can work together.
Then again, I'm a volunteer. I don't owe you anything. If you want help getting your ride together, you'd better be respectful to everybody around here. We want everybody to learn to fix bikes and apply that knowledge toward putting more bikes onto the streets. If you want to join in that effort, there's always room, but if you've got a bigger problem to deal with, go do that first.
I understand that sentiment. The folks are learning a trade and more bikes are getting recirculated. I guess it can be a problem because the folks they are selling the bikes to could come to you and learn as well. I've seen people come in with a regular, pick out a bike, then the regular would proceed to build up the bike while the person they came with learns nothing. It's a list opportunity. There are shops with limited access to parts and donated bikes that want their teaching to reach more new people. Then there are shops that need to be financially self supported and lose out because the people buying the bikes could be supporting the shop instead. You really have to step back. If individuals are causing problems in you shop they really need to be dealt with individually. If they aren't really causing a problem except that they are using your space and taking advantage of your generosity look at the wholistic effect. Are they really growing and developing a useful skill? Are more bikes reaching the community? Will new general policies harm the feel of the space and turn others away who you are trying to reach? Are these problem patrons perhaps introducing new people to the shop? It's a difficult situation and in many ways you have to suspend your urge to have things feel fair.
Enzo Loconte Board Secretary Bikerowave
On Oct 14, 2013, at 9:25 PM, Vernon Huffman vernonhuffman@yahoo.com wrote:
I believe we're in agreement, Joanne. Bicycles are a great tool for recovery. They save money and provide exercise.
From: Joanne Mule
Cash will always be a scarce resource, if one can learn a skill such as building a bike, it makes better use of the non-cash resources. We all have it tough in a tough economy. Even a drug addict can learn to use that skill and make the best of it. Addiction is a difficult habit to break. But outright stealing shows that they have no skill whatsoever nor any desire to right the wrong. Everyone has it rough from time to time. It is what we do during those times that can make us stronger.
From: vernon huffman
First off, we need to recognize that none of us is perfect and each of us has the capacity to do something worthwhile, even if life has been especially rough so far. I'm not here to judge anybody. If you're nice to me and help build the organization, we can work together.
Then again, I'm a volunteer. I don't owe you anything. If you want help getting your ride together, you'd better be respectful to everybody around here. We want everybody to learn to fix bikes and apply that knowledge toward putting more bikes onto the streets. If you want to join in that effort, there's always room, but if you've got a bigger problem to deal with, go do that first.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thanks Enzo. I think your point is well made, well thought and has something we can all take whether we've agreed with the prior statements in this thread or not.
I don't think that this is the place to belittle a statement that has been made by others. This is a forum to bounce ideas off one another and seek guidance, input, etc from others. As Enzo points out, each shop/collective/group has different procedures or policies based on what makes more sense for them, what they need, their community and its needs.
We cannot put ourselves in some other shop or community's shoes and pass judgement on why and how things are done there. We can offer reason, advice and guidance and even our personal opinion or reasoning behind why we may offer that out to the whole group, but in the spirit of the positive work we all do and helping each other out (as this resource is meant for), we should try and keep or comments positive.
It's not that we can't disagree and speak up about it (there's nothing wrong with being passionate and opinionated), but it's not very productive to call things out in a negative way or in a way that may indirectly point to another's comment as negative, stupid, wrong, whatever word fills that blank.
I cut out the prior comments in this reply (other than Enzo's because I was directly referencing what was written) because I didn't want those attached to think I'm calling them out. I'm not.
Also, I hope this doesn't result in everyone who posted to this thread needing to justify/defend what they did or didn't say...that wasn't my point.
Wanda
Wanda Pelegrina Caldas, Board Member
Community Cycles, Boulder's only nonprofit bike shop, serves all your bike commuting needs.
Find us on Facebook, subscribe to our monthly e-news or use our secure online donation form to become a member, today.
Thanks!!
From: wormsign@gmail.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:25:51 -0700 To: vernonhuffman@yahoo.com; thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Questionable customers
I understand that sentiment. The folks are learning a trade and more bikes are getting recirculated. I guess it can be a problem because the folks they are selling the bikes to could come to you and learn as well. I've seen people come in with a regular, pick out a bike, then the regular would proceed to build up the bike while the person they came with learns nothing. It's a list opportunity. There are shops with limited access to parts and donated bikes that want their teaching to reach more new people. Then there are shops that need to be financially self supported and lose out because the people buying the bikes could be supporting the shop instead. You really have to step back. If individuals are causing problems in you shop they really need to be dealt with individually. If they aren't really causing a problem except that they are using your space and taking advantage of your generosity look at the wholistic effect. Are they really growing and developing a useful skill? Are more bikes reaching the community? Will new general policies harm the feel of the space and turn others away who you are trying to reach? Are these problem patrons perhaps introducing new people to the shop? It's a difficult situation and in many ways you have to suspend your urge to have things feel fair.
Enzo LoconteBoard SecretaryBikerowave
Enzo brought up the fairness issue and I personally struggle with it. THe gang at the BBQ would like nothing more than everyone, no matter what luggage they bring, feel welcomed. But when you have some bonehead steal a bike from a volunteer that is in his own financial struggle but still manages to give, you have a tendency for fairness. And yes this is minor in the big picture. But there is a side effect to something like this and it is perception. Patrons are going to find out about it and that makes people question whether it is worth coming to the co op. We have 35 kids coming tomorrow and that for me personally is worth more than anything else happening at the BBQ. Kids are who I identify with and I want them (and their parents) to always feel safe along with their belongings. That's enough for this thread for me. Thanks for all your input. It is greatly appreciated.
Mark Friis
Executive Director, Inland Empire Biking Alliance
PO Box 9266
Redlands, CA 92375
909-800-4322
*mfriis@iebikingalliance.org*https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/mfriis@iebikingalliance.org **
WWW.IEBIKE.ORG https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/WWW.IEBIKE.ORG
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Wanda Pelegrina Caldas < wanda@communitycycles.org> wrote:
Thanks Enzo. I think your point is well made, well thought and has something we can all take whether we've agreed with the prior statements in this thread or not.
I don't think that this is the place to belittle a statement that has been made by others. This is a forum to bounce ideas off one another and seek guidance, input, etc from others. As Enzo points out, each shop/collective/group has different procedures or policies based on what makes more sense for them, what they need, their community and its needs.
We cannot put ourselves in some other shop or community's shoes and pass judgement on why and how things are done there. We can offer reason, advice and guidance and even our personal opinion or reasoning behind why we may offer that out to the whole group, but in the spirit of the positive work we all do and helping each other out (as this resource is meant for), we should try and keep or comments positive.
It's not that we can't disagree and speak up about it (there's nothing wrong with being passionate and opinionated), but it's not very productive to call things out in a negative way or in a way that may indirectly point to another's comment as negative, stupid, wrong, whatever word fills that blank.
I cut out the prior comments in this reply (other than Enzo's because I was directly referencing what was written) because I didn't want those attached to think I'm calling them out. I'm not.
Also, I hope this doesn't result in everyone who posted to this thread needing to justify/defend what they did or didn't say...that wasn't my point.
Wanda
*Wanda Pelegrina Caldas*, Board Member Community Cycles http://communitycycles.org/, Boulder's only nonprofit bike shop, serves all your bike commuting needs. Find us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/CommunityCycles, subscribe to our monthly e-news http://communitycycles.us2.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=dfb03be0fd757585736a1e106&id=e495377238or use our secure online donation formhttps://www.formstack.com/forms/?1364133-5g75MWLlC7to become a member, today. Thanks!!
From: wormsign@gmail.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:25:51 -0700 To: vernonhuffman@yahoo.com; thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Questionable customers
I understand that sentiment. The folks are learning a trade and more bikes are getting recirculated. I guess it can be a problem because the folks they are selling the bikes to could come to you and learn as well. I've seen people come in with a regular, pick out a bike, then the regular would proceed to build up the bike while the person they came with learns nothing. It's a list opportunity. There are shops with limited access to parts and donated bikes that want their teaching to reach more new people. Then there are shops that need to be financially self supported and lose out because the people buying the bikes could be supporting the shop instead. You really have to step back. If individuals are causing problems in you shop they really need to be dealt with individually. If they aren't really causing a problem except that they are using your space and taking advantage of your generosity look at the wholistic effect. Are they really growing and developing a useful skill? Are more bikes reaching the community? Will new general policies harm the feel of the space and turn others away who you are trying to reach? Are these problem patrons perhaps introducing new people to the shop? It's a difficult situation and in many ways you have to suspend your urge to have things feel fair.
Enzo Loconte Board Secretary Bikerowave
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
consider how a biker feels in the normal car centric society, the "luggage" mentioned previously, and how it would be to not treat people that way...
I've been on both sides of it, one+ place I won't go back to, other times had issue volunteering with some people, so depends upon the culture, dominant or not.
Consider the average 20 something coop/shop, do they go out drinking at events? is the event sponsored by manufacturers of ETOH, etc... how is that for supporting a sober/ clean/ etc environment for the people who might need the service in the community?
also many people drop down to bicycles when their licenses are suspended for DWI, DUI, etc. not always a bad lifestyle change, from a biker's perspective...
financially and environmentally, bikes make sense, cost of a motored repair about the price of an entire bicycle... gas costs vs food costs, if roads/ infrastructure can accommodate...
consider when someone stops biking at the end of a season/ after bike tour, etc the down feeling / freefall that occurs from lack of endorphins, not consider that's probably what the addict/ etohic, etc is feeling, many times over. add the public scorn, etc of "you've been drinking/ drugging/ etc again"
/stepping off soapbox and going to a friend/ relatives of meeting f mr certified substance abuse counselor candidate who's car died doing cross county commutes for volunteer/supervision hours in provider based treatment centers (read inpatient, 2x detox, dual), but didn't finish...
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 11:37 PM, Mark Friis iebafriis@gmail.com wrote:
Enzo brought up the fairness issue and I personally struggle with it. THe gang at the BBQ would like nothing more than everyone, no matter what luggage they bring, feel welcomed. But when you have some bonehead steal a bike from a volunteer that is in his own financial struggle but still manages to give, you have a tendency for fairness. And yes this is minor in the big picture. But there is a side effect to something like this and it is perception. Patrons are going to find out about it and that makes people question whether it is worth coming to the co op. We have 35 kids coming tomorrow and that for me personally is worth more than anything else happening at the BBQ. Kids are who I identify with and I want them (and their parents) to always feel safe along with their belongings. That's enough for this thread for me. Thanks for all your input. It is greatly appreciated.
Mark Friis
Executive Director, Inland Empire Biking Alliance
PO Box 9266
Redlands, CA 92375
909-800-4322
*mfriis@iebikingalliance.org*https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/mfriis@iebikingalliance.org **
WWW.IEBIKE.ORG https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/WWW.IEBIKE.ORG
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Wanda Pelegrina Caldas < wanda@communitycycles.org> wrote:
Thanks Enzo. I think your point is well made, well thought and has something we can all take whether we've agreed with the prior statements in this thread or not.
I don't think that this is the place to belittle a statement that has been made by others. This is a forum to bounce ideas off one another and seek guidance, input, etc from others. As Enzo points out, each shop/collective/group has different procedures or policies based on what makes more sense for them, what they need, their community and its needs.
We cannot put ourselves in some other shop or community's shoes and pass judgement on why and how things are done there. We can offer reason, advice and guidance and even our personal opinion or reasoning behind why we may offer that out to the whole group, but in the spirit of the positive work we all do and helping each other out (as this resource is meant for), we should try and keep or comments positive.
It's not that we can't disagree and speak up about it (there's nothing wrong with being passionate and opinionated), but it's not very productive to call things out in a negative way or in a way that may indirectly point to another's comment as negative, stupid, wrong, whatever word fills that blank.
I cut out the prior comments in this reply (other than Enzo's because I was directly referencing what was written) because I didn't want those attached to think I'm calling them out. I'm not.
Also, I hope this doesn't result in everyone who posted to this thread needing to justify/defend what they did or didn't say...that wasn't my point.
Wanda
*Wanda Pelegrina Caldas*, Board Member Community Cycles http://communitycycles.org/, Boulder's only nonprofit bike shop, serves all your bike commuting needs. Find us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/CommunityCycles, subscribe to our monthly e-news http://communitycycles.us2.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=dfb03be0fd757585736a1e106&id=e495377238or use our secure online donation formhttps://www.formstack.com/forms/?1364133-5g75MWLlC7to become a member, today. Thanks!!
From: wormsign@gmail.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:25:51 -0700 To: vernonhuffman@yahoo.com; thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Questionable customers
I understand that sentiment. The folks are learning a trade and more bikes are getting recirculated. I guess it can be a problem because the folks they are selling the bikes to could come to you and learn as well. I've seen people come in with a regular, pick out a bike, then the regular would proceed to build up the bike while the person they came with learns nothing. It's a list opportunity. There are shops with limited access to parts and donated bikes that want their teaching to reach more new people. Then there are shops that need to be financially self supported and lose out because the people buying the bikes could be supporting the shop instead. You really have to step back. If individuals are causing problems in you shop they really need to be dealt with individually. If they aren't really causing a problem except that they are using your space and taking advantage of your generosity look at the wholistic effect. Are they really growing and developing a useful skill? Are more bikes reaching the community? Will new general policies harm the feel of the space and turn others away who you are trying to reach? Are these problem patrons perhaps introducing new people to the shop? It's a difficult situation and in many ways you have to suspend your urge to have things feel fair.
Enzo Loconte Board Secretary Bikerowave
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
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