In fact this topic was discussed very recently. Try visiting bikecollectives.org, find the menu item thinktank archives and see, among others, the thread about "bike sales out of control" from earlier this month.

chris

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alex Rosenblatt rosenblatt.alex@gmail.comwrote:

Hello all!

Alright, so I'm sure this has been posted to the list 54 times over.

But:

How do y'all make money?

More specifically: Our bike co-op has traditionally been, on the front end, a completely volunteer based earn-a-bike program. We have paid staff but aside from that money is not exchanged. We are considering selling bicycles, charging a per hour rate, and selling parts but we are afraid of alienating a large part of our population. How do you balance retaining your goals, ethics, ideologies - like promoting bicycle access, providing (largely) free transportation, anti-capitalist leanings, skill empowerment - with keeping your shop autonomous and self sustaining?

Thanks all! Apologies if this is an all to often repeated topic and feel free to ask for clarification.

Alex Recycle Ithaca's Bicycles. (RIBS) _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:

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At MoBo, we have a $20 membership fee. We make sure that it's promoted as flexible----if you can't afford the fee, you can pay it in increments, or later on, or sometimes never at all(although we don't suggest it). We find that most people are much more likely to just pay the 20. we charge one dollar per part, less if the person volunteers or just seems like they worked really hard on something.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:19 PM, james blesdoe jamesbleds0e@yahoo.comwrote:

At the Bicycle Kitchen (Los Angeles) we charge

$7.00 per-hour for stand time Regular retail prices for new items ( tubes, tires, cables, locks , bar tape etc.) Used parts depending on quality siding scale but basically $5.00 for any part. No one is turned away for lack of funds and the actual prices charged are determined on the fly by the "cook' (we call our volunteers cooks) on the floor at that time. It happens often that clients will give us $10.00 to $20.00 more than we ask for and conversely we give bicycles away to clients who really need them. We are also very flexible on the stand time charges. for instance a client has spent all day (6 hours) building a wheel he has finally got his first wheel laced but not trued. We say 2 hours or the length of time it will take the client after he has become moderately proficient at this highly useful skill.

I would not worry about asking your clients for money the services you can offer are valuable and will be rewarded in-kind

good rollin

Jim

--- On *Thu, 1/29/09, Alex Rosenblatt rosenblatt.alex@gmail.com* wrote:

From: Alex Rosenblatt rosenblatt.alex@gmail.com Subject: [TheThinkTank] Money! Autonomy! Ethics! Oh my? To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 3:47 PM

Hello all!

Alright, so I'm sure this has been posted to the list 54 times over.

But:

How do y'all make money?

More specifically: Our bike co-op has traditionally been, on the front end, a completely volunteer based earn-a-bike program. We have paid staff but aside from that money is not exchanged. We are considering selling bicycles, charging a per hour rate, and selling parts but we are afraid of alienating a large part of our population. How do you balance retaining your goals, ethics, ideologies - like promoting bicycle access, providing (largely) free transportation, anti-capitalist leanings, skill empowerment - with keeping your shop autonomous and self sustaining?

Thanks all! Apologies if this is an all to often repeated topic and feel free to ask for clarification.

Alex Recycle Ithaca's Bicycles. (RIBS) _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing listThethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

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Hi think tank!

Richard here from Vélogik in Montreal. For the last 5 years we've been running our overhead heavy shop through large government employability program grants. We had an opportunity that we've been working on for the last two years that is becoming reality this spring. Essentially, we're going to run a regular bicycle shop with all the regular pay services and products (except no new bikes) to generate a profit and some stability and run community programs and socioprofessional insertion programs from the same shop. As a non-for-profit (charity status to come later) all our proceeds will be put back into the organisation. We have major expenses (3 salaries and growing, commercial rent for a 1700 sqft space) so we have to come up with ways of paying these and at the same time offer the services that the community desperately needs.

We're moving into a coop arrangement where we become part proprietors of our space. This is a long term advantage but in the short terms is very heavy on our finances. Luckily, we've got start up grants to help us out on that end. They are also serving as a great leverage to find other funds right now.

Our model and inspiration has definitely been Recycle-a-bicycle of New York who run two regular bicycle shops (staffed mainly by youths who've been through their programs) in order to generate funds with which to operate their several communty shops and programs. We're hoping that to run everything form the same space is going to work. It's definitely going to get messy at times to try to seperate activities from an administrative point of view and from a practical shop floor point of view as well. I'll let you know how it's working out in the fall - or if anyone is in Montréal...

Although our board of directors definitely leans left, we have definitely no guilt in offering pay services: the market is there for the taking and many people don't really care about bike mechanics and want to support us because of the work we are doing for the community. We are quite far from the nearest bike shop. To be able to create economic activity in an impoverished part of the city is also interesting for everyone involved.

Have we sold out? Well, sales will be an important part of our finances and we are going to charge regular bike shop prices for stuff and services. But we still will barter and exchange and work in non-traditional ways as much as possible. We want to be able to offer accessible bikes for people to buy or to earn, and we want them to be able to pay for our services or to trade for them. We aim to make a lot of links in the community and to deepen those links through volunteers and through other community organizations. The possibilities are there partially because there is such a vaccum of anyone doing anything that combines the commercial and the community approaches.

From a socio-professional insertion standpoint (if such programs exist in

your part of the world) the potential is enormous as you can have people doing all sorts of different types of work that is useful in a very measurable and concrete way to their own community. Pride and confidence is developed. It works.

2009/1/30, 1304bikes 1304bikes@gmail.com:

Hi Alex, we here at 1304bikes also operate a completely volunteer earn-a-bike program. We are also completely run by volunteers, no paid staff. It is part of our goal to sell next to nothing. The only thing we charge money for currently is brand new cables (at $1 a peice), but we have so many good used cables, that we rarely even sell those. We like the fact that everyone can have equal and free access to our shop, parts and tools, and that everyone has to work to earn their bike. It is very important to us that folks with the privelage of having money can not buy their way out of working/volunteering for a bike. We are able to keep our money exchange to a bare minimum becuase we reside in a space where our rent is only $50 a month. It is not the most ideal space, but its cheap. We have about 400sqft of indoor shop and mostly storage, our bikes our stored outside in a temporary shelter, and most work activity happens outdoors.

So where do we get money from? Most of it comes from people giving us a few dollars here and there. We have also found that reminding folks about our donation jar during the clean up announcement usually nets us anywhere from $5-20 each time we're open. We try not to sell any bikes unless it is absolutely neccessary to make rent (and we haven't sold a bike in almost a year!). We have also decided at a recent meeting to potentially start selling nice parts. If nice parts end up with all the rest, they usually just get taken by the cherry pickers who can afford to pay for them anyway.

We would eventually like to move into a much bigger space because we are outgrowing our current one extremely fast, but this will most likely mean higher rent. We will then find ourselves in the same position you are in, of trying to find a way to make money for rent, etc. while still maintaining our ideals of an accessible and largely anti-capitalist shop.

Keep us updated on how things go, as this is an issue i think many of us are interested in and struggle with.

for 1304bikes, -Doug

-- 1304bikes 2419 Mayview Rd. Raleigh, NC 1304bikes.org

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Andrew here from Troy Bike Rescue in Troy, NY

I am usually a lurker in the ThinkTank, but i like this thread. its great to hear how others make it as non-capitalist, if not anti-capitalist (the same thing?) entities.

we run two shops - one in albany and one in troy - two nearby, but seemingly different 'scenes', to some extent, seperated by about a 40 minute ride on a bike path and an expanse of suburbia (as the crow flies). troy is currently open one night per week (winter hours) and albany two nights per week.

in troy (where i primarily coordinate and volunteer), we have a workshop with a landlord who is a friend of the project... an honorary collective member, i suppose, even though he is not involved in our activities. we chip in for utilities on the building, but rent, per se, is donated. we are in a storefront, that also doubles as an autonomous performance and screening space. the larger space is collectively organized, partially by the Bike Rescue collective (4-6 core peops) and partially by the residents of the building (3-4 additional people). we are all-volunteer and survive solely on donations. we find that people are pretty generous to us. there is an inherent recognition (for the most part) that what we are doing is a good thing and will not be supported any other way - the revolution will not be funded! We table at the local farmers market in the spring and summer, and i find that people are not shy about giving us $10 or $20 just to support our cause. last summer, at the height of our 'season', it was not unlikely to bring in $80-$100 per workshop session. the only thing we 'sell' are tubes, and we charge $5, so as not to undercut a bikeshop price. if people use new cables, we generally suggest a $1 donation as well. we also have adoption fees broken down into 3 categories $5-15, $15-50, and $50-100. this is for bikes that are fixed and ready to ride. the categories are dependent on the quality of bike. crappy wal-mart bikes being the lowest, generally, and nice 80s roadbikes being the highest. we make clear, that this an 'adoption', not a sale. and of course, everything is negotiable. if someone selects a bike and puts a lot of work into it, we simply suggest a donation of what they think its worth minus their labor. this usually works just fine. thats not to say that we dont get taken advantage of sometimes, which feels shitty, but there are also times when people give us a big donation for no apparent reason, so i like to think it all evens out. at this time, we have no set youth programs and no real 'rules' except the posted donation ranges, and a big sign simply reading 'mutual aid & respect.' we do have 3-6 young people who show up semi-regularly (even in the winter) and are very excited to just be a part of things and work on bikes. when folks (icluding the youth) ask how they become a 'member' or get more involved, the reply by any collective member is usually "just keep coming back!" oh... we also sometimes do big donations of kids bikes to local non-profits. we just did one before christmas, where we gave about 20 kids bikes away all in one nite. they went to a Domestic Violence program where each would be place to a kid by the non-profit. this allows us to get rid of kids bikes, many of which come in not needing much repair, and also to build bridges with local groups that arent reliant on funding but rather a sense of mutual aid.

i totally think of our activities as an everyday anti-capitalist service project. and i believe that this is understood by many people, though rarely stated overtly.

i think about this stuff a LOT, and as a result, i wrote a minizine manifesto on it... people are encouraged to use it and distribute in your shops if it fits your mission... simply print and fold. the .pdf & directions are here: http://breathingplanet.net/SuggestedDonation i would love to know if people are using it, by the way.

ovr&out Andrew Lynn http://troybikerescue.org

Richard Dugas wrote:

Hi think tank!

Richard here from Vélogik in Montreal. For the last 5 years we've been running our overhead heavy shop through large government employability program grants. We had an opportunity that we've been working on for the last two years that is becoming reality this spring. Essentially, we're going to run a regular bicycle shop with all the regular pay services and products (except no new bikes) to generate a profit and some stability and run community programs and socioprofessional insertion programs from the same shop. As a non-for-profit (charity status to come later) all our proceeds will be put back into the organisation. We have major expenses (3 salaries and growing, commercial rent for a 1700 sqft space) so we have to come up with ways of paying these and at the same time offer the services that the community desperately needs.

We're moving into a coop arrangement where we become part proprietors of our space. This is a long term advantage but in the short terms is very heavy on our finances. Luckily, we've got start up grants to help us out on that end. They are also serving as a great leverage to find other funds right now.

Our model and inspiration has definitely been Recycle-a-bicycle of New York who run two regular bicycle shops (staffed mainly by youths who've been through their programs) in order to generate funds with which to operate their several communty shops and programs. We're hoping that to run everything form the same space is going to work. It's definitely going to get messy at times to try to seperate activities from an administrative point of view and from a practical shop floor point of view as well. I'll let you know how it's working out in the fall - or if anyone is in Montréal...

Although our board of directors definitely leans left, we have definitely no guilt in offering pay services: the market is there for the taking and many people don't really care about bike mechanics and want to support us because of the work we are doing for the community. We are quite far from the nearest bike shop. To be able to create economic activity in an impoverished part of the city is also interesting for everyone involved.

Have we sold out? Well, sales will be an important part of our finances and we are going to charge regular bike shop prices for stuff and services. But we still will barter and exchange and work in non-traditional ways as much as possible. We want to be able to offer accessible bikes for people to buy or to earn, and we want them to be able to pay for our services or to trade for them. We aim to make a lot of links in the community and to deepen those links through volunteers and through other community organizations. The possibilities are there partially because there is such a vaccum of anyone doing anything that combines the commercial and the community approaches. From a socio-professional insertion standpoint (if such programs exist in your part of the world) the potential is enormous as you can have people doing all sorts of different types of work that is useful in a very measurable and concrete way to their own community. Pride and confidence is developed. It works.

2009/1/30, 1304bikes <1304bikes@gmail.com mailto:1304bikes@gmail.com>:

Hi Alex, we here at 1304bikes also operate a completely volunteer
earn-a-bike program.  We are also completely run by volunteers, no
paid staff.  It is part of our goal to sell next to nothing.  The
only thing we charge money for currently is brand new cables (at $1
a peice), but we have so many good used cables, that we rarely even
sell those.  We like the fact that everyone can have equal and free
access to our shop, parts and tools, and that everyone has to work
to earn their bike.  It is very important to us that folks with the
privelage of having money can not buy their way out
of working/volunteering for a bike.   We are able to keep our money
exchange to a bare minimum becuase we reside in a space where our
rent is only $50 a month.  It is not the most ideal space, but its
cheap.  We have about 400sqft of indoor shop and mostly storage, our
bikes our stored outside in a temporary shelter, and most work
activity happens outdoors.  

So where do we get money from?  Most of it comes from people giving
us a few dollars here and there.  We have also found that reminding
folks about our donation jar during the clean up
announcement usually nets us anywhere from $5-20 each time we're
open.  We try not to sell any bikes unless it is absolutely
neccessary to make rent (and we haven't sold a bike in almost a
year!).  We have also decided at a recent meeting to potentially
start selling nice parts.  If nice parts end up with all the rest,
they usually just get taken by the cherry pickers who can afford to
pay for them anyway.  

We would eventually like to move into a much bigger space because we
are outgrowing our current one extremely fast, but this will most
likely mean higher rent.  We will then find ourselves in the same
position you are in, of trying to find a way to make money for rent,
etc. while still maintaining our ideals of an accessible and
largely anti-capitalist shop.

Keep us updated on how things go, as this is an issue i think many
of us are interested in and struggle with. 

for 1304bikes,
-Doug

-- 
1304bikes
2419 Mayview Rd.
Raleigh, NC
1304bikes.org <http://1304bikes.org/>


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