If I may take this a step further on two (2) counts...(1) Encourage innovation. (2) Demand safety. I don't want to upset or denigrate any individuals interest in cycling or learning to work on, or create bikes or anything else.

I learned to work on bikes as a kid, and find it one of my greatest sources of enjoyment as an adult years later. At the same time I have been working on motored vehicles nearly as long, though I currently do not due to a lack of time, and other resource limitations.

I have worked with/taught multiple populations skills including self sufficiency through the PROPER use of intellect, and development of skills and the creation of bikes, cars, airplanes, hot air balloons and hovercraft.

While its always wonderful to encourage and see innovative thought and design emerge, it is important to also instill the litmus test of safety and reliability as well as practicality. Such tests are why things like "chopper bikes, high riders (which are very cool) or bogart bikes" do not stand the test of time or practicality, let alone safety. It is also a huge contributor factor as to why liability insurance is what it is, or isn't as the case might be.

Learning to weld is an awesome skill that can lead to self sufficiency. However learning to build a substantial device with a conduit bender and drill is far more practical and in line with the skills that we all should be encouraging.

What's more is it teaches complex thought, skills and logic all while keeping two of the most detrimental industries to our economy off our backs: The insurance and legal industry.

So....welding good. Conduit bender and drill better. Logic, thought, skills best.

Just a thought.

Matt Fen Ardent fan and reader of this on going think tank.

-----Original Message----- From: christopher christopher@holisticcycles.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Sent: Sat, Jan 26, 2013 9:21 am Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Insurance for youth welding programs through bikes

I build trailers without welding at all, some handle up to 1200 pound. I weld other trailers because I can. My thoughts are this, if I am teaching kids to think about designing, engineering, constructing things; I want them to be able to do it in the future with the tools they or their parents may all ready have at home or tool they can buy inexpensively. Some kids may have a welder at home, More kids will have a drill. I built my trailers with a drill and a conduit bender. I normally haul 350 to 400 pounds of gear with it. It can be made small to haul groceries or large to carry a sofa.

We are currently making one to carry 12 bikes and the gear to teach a mobile bicycle safety course at schools.

Christopher Wallace Holistic Cycles 140 Harrison St Oak Park, IL. 60304

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Insurance for youth welding programs through bikes From: Nozomi Ikuta nozomi@affordablebikesrecyclery.com Date: Wed, January 23, 2013 8:28 pm To: The Think Tank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org

That was my thought exactly -- this is where our thoughts headed when we thought about welding. Cargo trailers, that is!

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:20 PM, christopher@holisticcycles.com wrote:

what about building trailers

Christopher Wallace

Holistic Cycles 140 Harrison St Oak Park, IL. 60304

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [TheThinkTank] Insurance for youth welding programs through bikes From: "Bronwyn Potthoff" bpotthoff@gwi.net Date: Fri, January 18, 2013 8:55 am To: thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org

Hello, We’ve been unsuccessfully trying to secure insurance to initiate a welding/fabrication program through the Community Bicycle Center. Ideally, we’re helping youth develop technical job skills through creating low-rider and chopper bicycles --- but the point of the program is not about bikes, it’s about learning the welding and fabrication skills necessary to create a tricked-out ride.

The major obstacle we hear from insurance companies is that we’re creating a high-risk “Frankenstein” product (or “functional art”) that is extremely hard to insure. As soon as we chop a bike, the manufacturer’s warranty is null and void (for good reason!) The actual welding with kids is not a huge issue – it’s what happens if a weld breaks or a kid injures him/herself going off jump with a bike that is not build to handle such stressors. Waivers and disclaimers will only go so far and are not bullet-proof. Because we’re a commercial entity, it’s obviously not covered under any homeowner’s insurance policy (which would be what covers you if you’re helping your nine year-old neighbor weld a sick mutant bike). Also, vocational school insurance functions differently – I checked that too.

I may end up having to change the program so that our “product” is not a bike, but something less risky such as a static sculpture. Regardless, does anybody have any experience with securing insurance for commercial (aka nonprofit) welding work with kids during which a “product” gets fabricated? [Keep in mind, all programs are free AND the product created is also free --- no bill of sale is involved] I’ve touched base with other programs around the country that do similar work, but have not heard back.

Thanks!! If it makes more sense to talk through this via phone, my number is 207 282 9700.

Bronwyn Potthoff, Resource Development/Community Relations Director Community Bicycle Center (mailing) P.O. Box 783 (shop) 284 Hill Street Biddeford, Maine 04005 t: 207.282.9700 www.communitybike.net

Providing Opportunities for Youth to Grow

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