Also, can I point out that there is a big difference between characterizing a statement or action as racist, and calling a person a racist? I think it's really important to be able to talk frankly about racism, and that is hard when bringing up the word at all is automatically interpreted as calling people racists. We all do or say racist things sometimes. It doesn't mean we're evil, horrible people. It means there's a situation when people could benefit from honest discussion and an opportunity to learn from others' perspectives. So can we try to be open to that without being offensive/taking offense? And make an extra effort to be clear when this loaded word does get put out there?
Race, gender, and class all definitely fit into this issue of accessibility, so it's great we're talking about it those terms. And it's complicated; we can probably all learn something from other peoples' experience.
-Jessica
----- Original Message ---- From: Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2008 2:29:22 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
When
I
went
to
college
I
was
a
poor
white
kid
from
rural
Oregon
on
a
scholarship
to
a
fancy
East
Coast
private
university.
Everybody
I
met
there
had
more
money
than
I
did.
During the summers they all went off to unpaid internships in NY or LA.
I had similar offers, but there was just no way I could afford to do that, move to NYC for three months with no pay.
When my friends graduated they got jobs at these places and I ended up working at a bakery.
That's
what
Kyle
was
talking
about.
And
as
an
aside
he
made
the
leap,
perhaps
disputed
by
some
here,
that
people
who
are
not
white
are
more
often
among
those
who
don't
have
a
lot
of
money.
Maybe
you
don't
agree,
but
all
he
was
saying
is
that
if
you
pay
people,
then
you
will
be
more
likely
to
find
class
and
probably
race
diversity
on
your
staffs.
True?
False?
Maybe?
I
don't
know,
but
it
makes
logical
sense,
and
it
seems
possible
to
agree
with
him
or
disagree
with
him
without
being
a
racist.
Erik Ryberg
ien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on
volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly.
Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters
organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75%
female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being
privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in
general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a
look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a
breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general.
But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and
you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that
volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females.
bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to
'donate' a
lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I
have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a
racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our
benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me
wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and
why.
There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in
our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I
want
to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think,
because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all
backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things
easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the
existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not
obvious
to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
Andrew C. Dyson >
Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works >
Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling > > >
Check our Web Site: >
http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org > > >
Neighborhood Bike Works >
3916 Locust Walk, >
Philadelphia, PA 19104 > > >
Office: (215) 386-0316 >
Cell: (215) 873-6695 >
FAX: (215) 386-7288 >
_______________________________________________ >
Thethinktank mailing list >
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org >
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o... > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Thethinktank mailing list > Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org > http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o... -- Erik B. Ryberg Attorney at Law 445 West Simpson Street Tucson, AZ 85701 (520) 622-3333 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Why are all you racists insisting on English (the Northern European language)for this communication anyway? Until someone types a message in Esperanto, Spanish or Hmong, I am going to think a little less of all of you and mostly myself. IF I may recommend a book, Paul Kivel's Uprooting Racism is a good read. It helped me to be less racist. Am I completely free of racist thought? Nope. But if I can change my mind to any degree, it is that much better. So, thanks Jessica,! I just got Kivels book out and am going to do a little refresher.
CAB
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:46:14 -0800 From: jessica_mcp@yahoo.com To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
Also, can I point out that there is a big difference between characterizing a statement or action as racist, and calling a person a racist? I think it's really important to be able to talk frankly about racism, and that is hard when bringing up the word at all is automatically interpreted as calling people racists. We all do or say racist things sometimes. It doesn't mean we're evil, horrible people. It means there's a situation when people could benefit from honest discussion and an opportunity to learn from others' perspectives. So can we try to be open to that without being offensive/taking offense? And make an extra effort to be clear when this loaded word does get put out there?
Race, gender, and class all definitely fit into this issue of accessibility, so it's great we're talking about it those terms. And it's complicated; we can probably all learn something from other peoples' experience.
-Jessica
----- Original Message ---- From: Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2008 2:29:22 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
When I went to college I was a poor white kid from rural Oregon on a scholarship to a fancy East Coast private university.
Everybody I met there had more money than I did.During the summers they all went off to unpaid internships in NY or LA.
I had similar offers, but there was just no way I could afford to do that, move to NYC for three months with no pay.
When my friends graduated they got jobs at these places and I ended up working at a bakery.
That's what Kyle was talking about.
And as an aside he made the leap, perhaps disputed by some here, that people who are not white are more often among those who don't have a lot of money.Maybe you don't agree, but all he was saying is that if you pay people, then you will be more likely to find class and probably race diversity on your staffs.
True?
False?
Maybe?
I don't know, but it makes logical sense, and it seems possible to agree with him or disagree with him without being a racist.Erik Ryberg
ien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on
volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly.
Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters
organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75%
female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being
privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in
general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a
look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a
breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general.
But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and
you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that
volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females.
bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to
'donate' a
lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I
have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a
racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our
benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me
wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and
why.
There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in
our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I
want
to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think,
because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all
backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things
easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the
existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not
obvious
to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
--
Andrew C. Dyson
Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works
Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling
Check our Web Site:
http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org
Neighborhood Bike Works
3916 Locust Walk,
Philadelphia, PA 19104
Office: (215) 386-0316
Cell: (215) 873-6695
FAX: (215) 386-7288
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Erik B. Ryberg Attorney at Law 445 West Simpson Street Tucson, AZ 85701 (520) 622-3333 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
as a lower class chicana womyn i'm really glad to see this discussion.
kinda lost, but whatever.
-vix.
On 2/7/08, CLINTON BIGGS letlovein2@msn.com wrote:
Why are all you racists insisting on English (the Northern European language)for this communication anyway? Until someone types a message in Esperanto, Spanish or Hmong, I am going to think a little less of all of you and mostly myself. IF I may recommend a book, Paul Kivel's Uprooting Racism is a good read. It helped me to be less racist. Am I completely free of racist thought? Nope. But if I can change my mind to any degree, it is that much better. So, thanks Jessica,! I just got Kivels book out and am going to do a little refresher.
CAB
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:46:14 -0800 From: jessica_mcp@yahoo.com To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
Also, can I point out that there is a big difference between
characterizing a statement or action as racist, and calling a person a racist? I think it's really important to be able to talk frankly about racism, and that is hard when bringing up the word at all is automatically interpreted as calling people racists. We all do or say racist things sometimes. It doesn't mean we're evil, horrible people. It means there's a situation when people could benefit from honest discussion and an opportunity to learn from others' perspectives. So can we try to be open to that without being offensive/taking offense? And make an extra effort to be clear when this loaded word does get put out there?
Race, gender, and class all definitely fit into this issue of
accessibility, so it's great we're talking about it those terms. And it's complicated; we can probably all learn something from other peoples' experience.
-Jessica
----- Original Message ---- From: Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com To: The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2008 2:29:22 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
When I went to college I was a poor white kid from rural Oregon on a scholarship to a fancy East Coast private university. Everybody I met there had more money than I did.
During the summers they all went off to unpaid internships in NY or LA.
I had similar offers, but there was just no way I could afford to do that, move to NYC for three months with no pay.
When my friends graduated they got jobs at these places and I ended up working at a bakery.
That's what Kyle was talking about. And as an aside he made the leap, perhaps disputed by some here, that people who are not white are more often among those who don't have a lot of money.
Maybe you don't agree, but all he was saying is that if you pay people, then you will be more likely to find class and probably race diversity on your staffs. True? False? Maybe? I don't know, but it makes logical sense, and it seems possible to agree with him or disagree with him without being a racist.
Erik Ryberg
ien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on
volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly.
Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters
organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75%
female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being
privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in
general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a
look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a
breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general.
But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and
you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that
volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females.
bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to
'donate' a
lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I
have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a
racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our
benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me
wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and
why.
There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in
our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I
want
to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think,
because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all
backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things
easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the
existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not
obvious
to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
--
Andrew C. Dyson
Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works
Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling
Check our Web Site:
http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org
Neighborhood Bike Works
3916 Locust Walk,
Philadelphia, PA 19104
Office: (215) 386-0316
Cell: (215) 873-6695
FAX: (215) 386-7288
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- Erik B. Ryberg Attorney at Law 445 West Simpson Street Tucson, AZ 85701 (520) 622-3333 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
participants (3)
-
CLINTON BIGGS -
Jessica McPherson -
Vicktoria Lorraine