Can we keep the peace, folks? The slow dialogue accomplished through
electronic text has a particularly insidious way of making people's
positions appear more heinous than they really are.
What could be easily accomplished in a few minutes chatting as adults
(friends, even), frequently becomes a site of attack.
This is why internet debates suck.
Best advice I read recently re: these situations -
Sit down, write an angry email.
Read it slowly.
Then delete it.
I'm not exercising authoritarian male privilege to shut down an
unpleasant but necessary social/political argument. I'm just
suggesting that there are better ways to do this; and, most
importantly, this thinktank listserv (as I understand it) is a very
poorly suited space to having that conversation.
Clifford McCarten Co-Director, B!KE: The Peterborough Community Bike Shop 400 Wolfe St, Peterborough ON K9J 2P3 (705) 748-6681 http://www.communitybikeshop.org
On 2009-10-30, at 4:08 PM, thethinktank-request@bikecollectives.org
wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. (Bike City)
Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:18:31 -0600 From: Bike City bikecityrecyclery@gmail.com To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. Message-ID: 1256926711.3564.31.camel@andrea-laptop Content-Type: text/plain
I believe we were discussing sexism. You seem to be discussing what a good mechanic is. If you feel so passionately, why didn't you start a new thread? You are either A) off-topic or B) sexist.
Okay, you have "27 year experience." What makes you assume that you're talking to a bunch of little girls? How old am I? It's obvious that a good mechanic is thorough, fast, and organized. Everyone here theoretically loves bicycles and strives daily for these ideals. Why
do you think these little girls need you to tell them what a good
mechanic is? I know I pranced into the industry on my dainty high heels and had everything handed to me on a pink platter, but still. I thought a good mechanic was one that didn't muss her makeup! You mean I have to
work as hard as a man?! I'm outta here!What organization are you involved in?
And please keep your discussion on this list. If you send any more emails to my personal address I will post them here for you.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 21:09 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
Why did you put the word "Female Mechanic" in the middle of my words. I meant all mechanics, not just xx are less organized, which makes them slower and less thorough. You are correct the is I am not automatically a better mechanic than women and men. I have 27 year experience that is what makes me more organized, efficient, faster, than most mechanics. I have taught classes for year and
played mechanic speed games for many years too. The Games make you faster, putting your tools away every time you touch one makes you faster, As long as you wish to jump to conclusions that my word are against
women only, you are showing that you are the sexist bastard you accuse others of being. I have worked hard for my skills and I in courage
you to work just as hard to challenge your own skill to become better and better throughout your career.Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and
Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue
-- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrongwith it, nor what he's
hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He'sdoing this to challenge
me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he'sthinking of. No matter
what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he maylead me down the
wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fixthose. Maybe he'll
even tell me that they're the only problem. But whatoriginally caused him to
come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaksfurther, he will
blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. Thisreinforces his negative
stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it myfault? No. He set me
up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do itto any woman
sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problemis neither me nor my
chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But wordwill get out that xx
shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly
as
a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not
call
them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique.
( all
of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy
mechanic.
I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave
them.
I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I
do
to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment,
and
toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots
of
bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I
never
hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive
ones
either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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End of Thethinktank Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
I have put "gender issues in our spaces and communities" down on my list for workshop topics come bikebike 2010. Hope that helps!
Chloé
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
-----Original Message----- From: Clifford McCarten director@communitybikeshop.org Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:26:20 To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Thethinktank Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
Can we keep the peace, folks? The slow dialogue accomplished through
electronic text has a particularly insidious way of making people's
positions appear more heinous than they really are.
What could be easily accomplished in a few minutes chatting as adults
(friends, even), frequently becomes a site of attack.
This is why internet debates suck.
Best advice I read recently re: these situations -
Sit down, write an angry email.
Read it slowly.
Then delete it.
I'm not exercising authoritarian male privilege to shut down an
unpleasant but necessary social/political argument. I'm just
suggesting that there are better ways to do this; and, most
importantly, this thinktank listserv (as I understand it) is a very
poorly suited space to having that conversation.
Clifford McCarten Co-Director, B!KE: The Peterborough Community Bike Shop 400 Wolfe St, Peterborough ON K9J 2P3 (705) 748-6681 http://www.communitybikeshop.org
On 2009-10-30, at 4:08 PM, thethinktank-request@bikecollectives.org
wrote:
Send Thethinktank mailing list submissions to thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to thethinktank-request@bikecollectives.org
You can reach the person managing the list at thethinktank-owner@bikecollectives.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Thethinktank digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Re: Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. (Bike City)
Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:18:31 -0600 From: Bike City bikecityrecyclery@gmail.com To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. Message-ID: 1256926711.3564.31.camel@andrea-laptop Content-Type: text/plain
I believe we were discussing sexism. You seem to be discussing what a good mechanic is. If you feel so passionately, why didn't you start a new thread? You are either A) off-topic or B) sexist.
Okay, you have "27 year experience." What makes you assume that you're talking to a bunch of little girls? How old am I? It's obvious that a good mechanic is thorough, fast, and organized. Everyone here theoretically loves bicycles and strives daily for these ideals. Why
do you think these little girls need you to tell them what a good
mechanic is? I know I pranced into the industry on my dainty high heels and had everything handed to me on a pink platter, but still. I thought a good mechanic was one that didn't muss her makeup! You mean I have to
work as hard as a man?! I'm outta here!What organization are you involved in?
And please keep your discussion on this list. If you send any more emails to my personal address I will post them here for you.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 21:09 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
Why did you put the word "Female Mechanic" in the middle of my words. I meant all mechanics, not just xx are less organized, which makes them slower and less thorough. You are correct the is I am not automatically a better mechanic than women and men. I have 27 year experience that is what makes me more organized, efficient, faster, than most mechanics. I have taught classes for year and
played mechanic speed games for many years too. The Games make you faster, putting your tools away every time you touch one makes you faster, As long as you wish to jump to conclusions that my word are against
women only, you are showing that you are the sexist bastard you accuse others of being. I have worked hard for my skills and I in courage
you to work just as hard to challenge your own skill to become better and better throughout your career.Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and
Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue
-- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrongwith it, nor what he's
hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He'sdoing this to challenge
me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he'sthinking of. No matter
what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he maylead me down the
wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fixthose. Maybe he'll
even tell me that they're the only problem. But whatoriginally caused him to
come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaksfurther, he will
blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. Thisreinforces his negative
stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it myfault? No. He set me
up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do itto any woman
sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problemis neither me nor my
chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But wordwill get out that xx
shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly
as
a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not
call
them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique.
( all
of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy
mechanic.
I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave
them.
I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I
do
to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment,
and
toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots
of
bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I
never
hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive
ones
either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org
To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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End of Thethinktank Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
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-
Clifford McCarten -
winter.snowy.rose＠gmail.com