I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in Bicycling Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we not only fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long but a worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes work and placing them on the street. We use we them for training our volunteers and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i use a Murry for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front wheel mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped be-fendered Huffy to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike) those and they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems with it. i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender and we found a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the road.
Happy rollin
Jim
Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote: I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in Bicycling Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we not only fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long but a worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to (a) shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the bike into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to take apart the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up and break the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel, so it seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old rigid fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes that require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously steep headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem for a lot of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart bikes and the older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes are better for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general sense that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer bike--even if it is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult to fix when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against the bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection of the continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our best efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons for buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes work and placing them on the street. We use we them for training our volunteers and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i use a Murry for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front wheel mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped be-fendered Huffy to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike) those and they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems with it. i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender and we found a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in Bicycling Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we not only fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long but a worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to (a) shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the bike into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to take apart the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up and break the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel, so it seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old rigid fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes that require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously steep headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem for a lot of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart bikes and the older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes are better for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general sense that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer bike--even if it is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult to fix when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against the bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection of the continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our best efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons for buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes work and placing them on the street. We use we them for training our volunteers and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i use a Murry for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front wheel mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped be-fendered Huffy to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike) those and they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems with it. i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender and we found a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in Bicycling Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we not only fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long but a worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- If an Easyrider rides easy, then a bicirider rides bicis _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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I am always surprised by the number of customers requesting a single speed here in Ottawa. We aren't exactly mountainous but it is by no means flat and personally I can't even get around on a 3spd. However many seem to prefer and be perfectly happy with a 20-50 year old single speed. As long as they are happy and riding then who are we to complain or criticize?
Chris
PS I imagine most vintage single speeds stick to the downtown core and avoid hills while I tend to commute 20+km and often don't have time to explore ways around the hills.
--- Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to
(a)
shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the
bike
into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to
take apart
the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up
and break
the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel,
so it
seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old
rigid
fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes
that
require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously
steep
headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem
for a lot
of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart
bikes and the
older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes
are better
for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general
sense
that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer
bike--even if it
is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult
to fix
when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against
the
bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection
of the
continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our
best
efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons
for
buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe
wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes
work and
placing them on the street. We use we them for training our
volunteers
and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i
use a Murry
for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front
wheel
mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped
be-fendered Huffy
to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike)
those and
they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems
with it.
i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender
and we found
a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the
road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in
Bicycling
Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we
not only
fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long
but a
worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- If an Easyrider rides easy, then a bicirider rides bicis _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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I wanted to jump back in here, perhaps because I think there's a lot of discussion going on and although the singlespeed v. geared debate may be a good one, I wanted to comment on what Kyle said. Sure, a NEXT or Magna can last a long time when you overhaul it right out of the store, etc. and i've seen people riding 10-20 year old department store bikes (irrespective of the fact that their quality keeps going down). Nonetheless there is no intent by the "people" designing, marketing, and selling these bikes to do anything else than pocket a smug margin off a cheap bicycle that *will* end up in the trash pretty quick. This is theft and exploitation.
We need to work towards increasing the visibility and demand for inexpensive commuters. Some solution can and should be made to provide an alternative within the price range of a department store bike that would clearly be better, and a way to make that difference accessible and known to the people who would be riding them. Sure geared bikes are good, but Singlespeeds that hold up are better than a geared bike that will fail and won't be fixable. We've had day laborers come into our shop before to do an earn-a-bike, and for everyone who tries to pick up an unservicable department store bike, we'll sit with them and talk to them and demonstrate the differences between that and a perhaps less shiny but sustainable alternative.
Current environmentalism and bicycle greenwashing have proven to be a joke in this regard. Shimano's *Coasting *initiative with Trek and whoever else is pumping out 'commuters' that fit only the gentrifying or suburban middle-class; Austin's recently witnessed the joke coffee-shop/shower facility/bike store called Mellow Johnny's where Mr. Armstrong's commuter-focus seems to include only one or two expensive commuters and some $6,000 road bikes. I know bike collectives do a good job getting real commuters on real bicycles, but maybe there's something else that can be done with shops and manufacturers to provide bikes that fit the needs and income of those who most use them... The "invisible riders" and the rest of us.
-sherief
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Chris Wells re-cycles@rogers.com wrote:
I am always surprised by the number of customers requesting a single speed here in Ottawa. We aren't exactly mountainous but it is by no means flat and personally I can't even get around on a 3spd. However many seem to prefer and be perfectly happy with a 20-50 year old single speed. As long as they are happy and riding then who are we to complain or criticize?
Chris
PS I imagine most vintage single speeds stick to the downtown core and avoid hills while I tend to commute 20+km and often don't have time to explore ways around the hills.
--- Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to
(a)
shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the
bike
into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to
take apart
the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up
and break
the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel,
so it
seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old
rigid
fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes
that
require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously
steep
headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem
for a lot
of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart
bikes and the
older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes
are better
for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general
sense
that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer
bike--even if it
is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult
to fix
when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against
the
bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection
of the
continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our
best
efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons
for
buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe
wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes
work and
placing them on the street. We use we them for training our
volunteers
and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i
use a Murry
for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front
wheel
mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped
be-fendered Huffy
to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike)
those and
they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems
with it.
i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender
and we found
a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the
road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in
Bicycling
Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we
not only
fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long
but a
worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- If an Easyrider rides easy, then a bicirider rides bicis _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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arrrgh, I can't remember why I joined this discussion now but one thing is for certain, more people are commuting, and that's a good thing. A refurbished 10 year old trek mtn bike originally worth $350 will outlast a Magna hands down. These bikes are everywhere. Yard sales, second hand stores, neighborhood clean-up piles. . . you name it. Perhaps just simply tossing the Magnas as they arrive in the shop and focusing on acquiring more "better" bikes is the solution; if there really is a problem in the first place. At least steel from cheaper bikes could be contributed to the War effort. http://www.flickr.com/photos/23205249@N03/2400730147/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/23205249@N03/2400730143/http://www.flickr.com/photos/23205249@N03/2400730143/in/photostream/
On 5/29/08, Sherief sgaber@gmail.com wrote:
I wanted to jump back in here, perhaps because I think there's a lot of discussion going on and although the singlespeed v. geared debate may be a good one, I wanted to comment on what Kyle said. Sure, a NEXT or Magna can last a long time when you overhaul it right out of the store, etc. and i've seen people riding 10-20 year old department store bikes (irrespective of the fact that their quality keeps going down). Nonetheless there is no intent by the "people" designing, marketing, and selling these bikes to do anything else than pocket a smug margin off a cheap bicycle that *will*end up in the trash pretty quick. This is theft and exploitation.
We need to work towards increasing the visibility and demand for inexpensive commuters. Some solution can and should be made to provide an alternative within the price range of a department store bike that would clearly be better, and a way to make that difference accessible and known to the people who would be riding them. Sure geared bikes are good, but Singlespeeds that hold up are better than a geared bike that will fail and won't be fixable. We've had day laborers come into our shop before to do an earn-a-bike, and for everyone who tries to pick up an unservicable department store bike, we'll sit with them and talk to them and demonstrate the differences between that and a perhaps less shiny but sustainable alternative.
Current environmentalism and bicycle greenwashing have proven to be a joke in this regard. Shimano's *Coasting *initiative with Trek and whoever else is pumping out 'commuters' that fit only the gentrifying or suburban middle-class; Austin's recently witnessed the joke coffee-shop/shower facility/bike store called Mellow Johnny's where Mr. Armstrong's commuter-focus seems to include only one or two expensive commuters and some $6,000 road bikes. I know bike collectives do a good job getting real commuters on real bicycles, but maybe there's something else that can be done with shops and manufacturers to provide bikes that fit the needs and income of those who most use them... The "invisible riders" and the rest of us.
-sherief
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Chris Wells re-cycles@rogers.com wrote:
I am always surprised by the number of customers requesting a single speed here in Ottawa. We aren't exactly mountainous but it is by no means flat and personally I can't even get around on a 3spd. However many seem to prefer and be perfectly happy with a 20-50 year old single speed. As long as they are happy and riding then who are we to complain or criticize?
Chris
PS I imagine most vintage single speeds stick to the downtown core and avoid hills while I tend to commute 20+km and often don't have time to explore ways around the hills.
--- Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to
(a)
shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the
bike
into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to
take apart
the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up
and break
the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel,
so it
seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old
rigid
fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes
that
require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously
steep
headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem
for a lot
of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart
bikes and the
older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes
are better
for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general
sense
that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer
bike--even if it
is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult
to fix
when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against
the
bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection
of the
continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our
best
efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons
for
buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe
wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes
work and
placing them on the street. We use we them for training our
volunteers
and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i
use a Murry
for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front
wheel
mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped
be-fendered Huffy
to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike)
those and
they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems
with it.
i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender
and we found
a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the
road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in
Bicycling
Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we
not only
fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long
but a
worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
At least steel from cheaper bikes could be contributed to the War effort.
awesome.
Because you have a heart, yes you have been outed. I think that is one benefit of bike collectives is that we can take these old 10 year old bikes and get them to people that need them. Maybe not good enough for the original rider, but better than a department store Magna or what not. But I think turning over the Magnas is still worth while. No one should have to buy them new however, a $30 magna that you have to replace in a year is better than a $150 one.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
arrrgh, I can't remember why I joined this discussion now but one thing is for certain, more people are commuting, and that's a good thing. A refurbished 10 year old trek mtn bike originally worth $350 will outlast a Magna hands down. These bikes are everywhere. Yard sales, second hand stores, neighborhood clean-up piles. . . you name it. Perhaps just simply tossing the Magnas as they arrive in the shop and focusing on acquiring more "better" bikes is the solution; if there really is a problem in the first place. At least steel from cheaper bikes could be contributed to the War effort. http://www.flickr.com/photos/23205249@N03/2400730147/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/23205249@N03/2400730143/
Indeed, 1-speed bikes are just fine for some folks. I personally
think the fixie fad has gotten quite stupid, but once Wallmart starts
selling them then the Apocalypse will surely have arrived. ;)
I have a cruiser bike with one gear and back-pedal brake. I ride it
for fun, and it goes fast enough on flat terrain. I ride it when I
just feel like riding something simple. No logic to it, just
emotion. Would I ride it for long distances? Sure, if it was flat
or gently rolling.
But my main bike is a Trek 520 with 21 speeds. I don't need all
those gears most of the time (like Chris, I live in Ottawa), but they
are there. I have a custom-built chopper with 10 speeds (http://
drumbent.com/chopper.html), and it's another goofy ride, I use it in
parades and cruising with friends, but it tires me out to go more
than a few kilometers. But I do like riding it...
I also have a cargo trike with 21 speeds and electric assist, a
Raleigh Twenty folding bike with 3 speeds, and a winter bike with a 7-
speed Nexus hub. If I had to pare them down I'd keep the Trek, the
winter bike, and the cargo trike. But the others still have their
uses, and if I had to even ride with a single speed I would survive
(though my knees might not like it).
BTW, pretty well all those old 3-speed bikes are geared way too
high. I guess Raleigh et al thought a cadence of around 50 was
good... With any 3-speed I've had the first thing I did was swap out
the stock 18T cog for either a 20 or 22 (Sheldon's site shows how to
adapt individual cassette cogs for this). Once the gearing is
lowered I think 3-speeds make for the perfect urban bike. Umm, until
one tries to stop safely with those steel rims in the rain... :P
Mark Rehder - Director re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op http://re-cycles.ca
On 29-May-08, at 2:00 PM, Chris Wells wrote:
I am always surprised by the number of customers requesting a single speed here in Ottawa. We aren't exactly mountainous but it is by no means flat and personally I can't even get around on a 3spd. However many seem to prefer and be perfectly happy with a 20-50 year old
single speed. As long as they are happy and riding then who are we to
complain or criticize?Chris
PS I imagine most vintage single speeds stick to the downtown core and avoid hills while I tend to commute 20+km and often don't have time to explore ways around the hills.
--- Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to
(a)
shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the
bike
into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to
take apart
the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up
and break
the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel,
so it
seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old
rigid
fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes
that
require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously
steep
headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem
for a lot
of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart
bikes and the
older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes
are better
for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general
sense
that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer
bike--even if it
is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult
to fix
when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against
the
bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection
of the
continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our
best
efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons
for
buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe
wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes
work and
placing them on the street. We use we them for training our
volunteers
and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i
use a Murry
for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front
wheel
mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped
be-fendered Huffy
to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike)
those and
they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems
with it.
i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender
and we found
a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the
road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in
Bicycling
Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we
not only
fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long
but a
worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank- bikecollectives.org
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank- bikecollectives.org
-- If an Easyrider rides easy, then a bicirider rides bicis _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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I think this is a great discussion.
At BICAS in Tucson we have recently noticed a (gentle) tension in our collective that I am calling the divide between the bike evangelists and the bike recyclers. Putting it very roughly and doing justice to no one, the evangelists want to get as many people on bikes as possible and if that means importing cheap single-speeds and selling new bikes, they would do it. The recyclers on the other hand believe in making do with the mountains of bikes we already have, and piecing together what we can.
I'm coming down on the evangelist side of things (at least so far), but I have no trouble seeing the logic in the recycler side, and in fact have been a little surprised to find myself holding the position I do.
Anyway, I think I notice the same positions here in this discussion.
Erik Ryberg
Mark Rehder wrote:
Indeed, 1-speed bikes are just fine for some folks. I personally think the fixie fad has gotten quite stupid, but once Wallmart starts selling them then the Apocalypse will surely have arrived. ;)
I have a cruiser bike with one gear and back-pedal brake. I ride it for fun, and it goes fast enough on flat terrain. I ride it when I just feel like riding something simple. No logic to it, just emotion. Would I ride it for long distances? Sure, if it was flat or gently rolling.
But my main bike is a Trek 520 with 21 speeds. I don't need all those gears most of the time (like Chris, I live in Ottawa), but they are there. I have a custom-built chopper with 10 speeds (http://drumbent.com/chopper.html), and it's another goofy ride, I use it in parades and cruising with friends, but it tires me out to go more than a few kilometers. But I do like riding it...
I also have a cargo trike with 21 speeds and electric assist, a Raleigh Twenty folding bike with 3 speeds, and a winter bike with a 7-speed Nexus hub. If I had to pare them down I'd keep the Trek, the winter bike, and the cargo trike. But the others still have their uses, and if I had to even ride with a single speed I would survive (though my knees might not like it).
BTW, pretty well all those old 3-speed bikes are geared way too high. I guess Raleigh et al thought a cadence of around 50 was good... With any 3-speed I've had the first thing I did was swap out the stock 18T cog for either a 20 or 22 (Sheldon's site shows how to adapt individual cassette cogs for this). Once the gearing is lowered I think 3-speeds make for the perfect urban bike. Umm, until one tries to stop safely with those steel rims in the rain... :P
Mark Rehder - Director re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op http://re-cycles.ca
On 29-May-08, at 2:00 PM, Chris Wells wrote:
I am always surprised by the number of customers requesting a single speed here in Ottawa. We aren't exactly mountainous but it is by no means flat and personally I can't even get around on a 3spd. However many seem to prefer and be perfectly happy with a 20-50 year old single speed. As long as they are happy and riding then who are we to complain or criticize?
Chris
PS I imagine most vintage single speeds stick to the downtown core and avoid hills while I tend to commute 20+km and often don't have time to explore ways around the hills.
--- Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to
(a)
shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the
bike
into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to
take apart
the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up
and break
the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel,
so it
seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old
rigid
fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes
that
require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously
steep
headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem
for a lot
of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart
bikes and the
older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes
are better
for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general
sense
that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer
bike--even if it
is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult
to fix
when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against
the
bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection
of the
continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our
best
efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons
for
buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe
wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes
work and
placing them on the street. We use we them for training our
volunteers
and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i
use a Murry
for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front
wheel
mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped
be-fendered Huffy
to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike)
those and
they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems
with it.
i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender
and we found
a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the
road.
Happy rollin
Jim
*Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com* wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in
Bicycling
Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we
not only
fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long
but a
worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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What Sharief said, ditto. I in no way meant to disparage recycling. I think Sharief points out (by implication) another useful categorization along with Erik's recycler/evangelist, that of "broadband" vs. "internal" organizing. The broadband is what you do when you happen upon someone on a Magna out in the street, or stir up a conversation at the bar with some new friends about bikes. The internal is when, say, you spend three hours with a homegirl/boy teaching them how to adjust their gears, brakes, etc . . . and then committing them to teach two other people the same. I think my rant was addressing the broadband, which may have led one to think I meant to disparage the more intensive and mission-critical work of recycling/internal organizing.
What an awesome thread.
James T.
But most of them effectively ride single speed anyway. Karlin mentioned in the slc bike collective list that she suffers from "gear confusion." I know a lot of people for which fixed gears make sense because they do not understand gears. I guess for more people, single-speeds (not fixed) make more sense because they can coast. Most of these people will probably not learn to switch gears, and most will not need to, so if getting rid of one crappy component makes their bikes effective, do it. Also, I think most of use learned on singles-speeds. I know I did. I ride a geared bike (hides head in shame) because I understand them, I know when to shift into what gears. But most people will not be doing to riding I do (30 miles or so into the italian countyside, sometimes flat, sometimes windy), so a single speed with an appropriate gearing will be fine. If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to (a) shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the bike into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to take apart the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up and break the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel, so it seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old rigid fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes that require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously steep headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem for a lot of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart bikes and the older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes are better for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general sense that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer bike--even if it is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult to fix when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against the bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection of the continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our best efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons for buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:38 PM, james blesdoe jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
At the Bicycle Kitchen we have started making the Wall Mart bikes work and placing them on the street. We use we them for training our volunteers and even though they are only fact similes of a real bicycle i use a Murry for polo.
One poor fellow, who's bike feel off the bus bike rack and front wheel mangled dragged his single speed coaster brake pin striped be-fendered Huffy to our shop. He said, "i have had (when offered a modern bike) those and they get stolen. I ride this everywhere. I have never had problems with it. i like it and just want to keep it." he lost the front fender and we found a new front wheel. cost him twenty bucks and he is back on the road.
Happy rollin
Jim
Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
I like where the discussion is going on Low End Walmart bikes. To provide an interesting prospective, check out this article in Bicycling Magazine. It highlights a part of the cycling population that we not only fail to recognize, but often are oblivious to. It's kind of long but a worthy read.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-13639-1-P,00.html _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
-- If an Easyrider rides easy, then a bicirider rides bicis _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all kinds of trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance, and weigh something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to survive the ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding is done for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make sense to stick with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they don't have the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they are not even an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed.
I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at Wal Mart a bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes that actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. -Erik
ronald ferrucci wrote:
If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
the only "crime" i see here is converting a bike into a single speed. While such a ridiculous notion might be fine for bike messengers of days past who did see the benefit of it being cheap and stupid such that no one would ever consider stealing one, it's out of place for ordinary civilians. Isn't the point to get bikes to ordinary people? Most people, as children learned to ride bikes with gears which begs that even a child can see the benefit. Even as this discussion was going on yesterday a neighbor pulled up to his home with a 30 pack on the top tube of his Magna and then proceeded to shuttle a child off to another destination in the same manner. The notion of a one gear bike to suffice for his daily activities would seem ludicrous to him for sure. The bikes they have stay outside all night and never seem to disappear which seems to support the theory suggested yesterday. hmmmf.
On 5/29/08, kyle mckinley bicirider@gmail.com wrote:
the biggest problems with the walmart bikes seem to be related to (a) shifting and (b) weight. both of these are mitigated by turning the bike into a single speed. The safest way to do this on the cheap is to take apart the freewheel and only leave one gear (so that it won't shift up and break the axel) and use just the middle chainring in front. The shocks on magnas and the like usually don't have much travel, so it seems to work pretty well to pull it off and replace it with an old rigid fork from the boneyard (as opposed to "real" modern mountain bikes that require a problemsolver rigid fork to not result in a dangerously steep headtube angle). I agree that it is a good idea to rehad these bikes. The problem for a lot of orgs is that there isn't the room to store both the walmart bikes and the older, nicer, communters and mountain bikes. And those old bikes are better for the rider, and less of a nightmare to fix up. Moreover, regarding this whole thread; I can appreciate the general sense that it is important to help everyone feel good about zer bike--even if it is from walmart--but I would still contend that by purposefully manufacturing bikes that break immediately, and are super difficult to fix when they break, these companies are perpetuating a crime against the bicycle... a crime so vast that the only point of comparison is the dasterdly deed of "carbon fiber". Surely there is a way that we can learn to articulate a rejection of the continued manufacture of these bikes (most of which, despite our best efforts, head quickly to the landfill) without blaming our patrons for buying them. How exactly we do that depends on the individual interaction--and how busted the roadmaster actually is. thanks- kyle
Agreed. I actually meant road bike, it is 9:30 pm here in italy and I have been drinking. Also, my fingers sometimes make decisions my mind is not aware of.
I do not think most people need all the gears. When I ride around in the city I use my fixed gear, because really that it all I need. Never had a problem. when I go for longer rides, I take my road bike, because I may like to be able to shift into lower gears for wind or hills or higher gears for straights and particularly downhills. Of course I am talking in the past tense, since I only have the one geared bike in italia.
Again, I think bike collectives can be useful because people can get an actual good bike used for less than the cost of a cheap crappy bike at wal-mart, and they can learn how to maintain them and therefore also save on expenses in the long run.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com wrote:
Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all kinds of trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance, and weigh something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to survive the ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding is done for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make sense to stick with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they don't have the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they are not even an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed.
I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at Wal Mart a bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes that actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. -Erik
ronald ferrucci wrote:
If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
I'm starting to think now about what the minimum cost of a new bicycle along the lines we're talking about would be... It would take some research but with a decent cheap steel frame, the rest could conceivably fall in line for around $100-150, could it not? With a little work and some fine tuning between this think tank, maybe we could get something rolling and in each of our respective neighborhoods start actually competing. Thinking about here in Austin, a hopeful starting point is that we're better positioned (geographically and in the community) than any walmart to offer or promote such a bicycle to people who need bicycles.
What about build kits even, along the lines of ronald's comment? Save on the labor-intensivity of this kind of project on one hand, and offer people a discount for building up their own new bike, helping them along the way and teaching them the repair skills they should know for their new bike?
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM, ronald ferrucci ronald.ferrucci@gmail.com wrote:
Agreed. I actually meant road bike, it is 9:30 pm here in italy and I have been drinking. Also, my fingers sometimes make decisions my mind is not aware of.
I do not think most people need all the gears. When I ride around in the city I use my fixed gear, because really that it all I need. Never had a problem. when I go for longer rides, I take my road bike, because I may like to be able to shift into lower gears for wind or hills or higher gears for straights and particularly downhills. Of course I am talking in the past tense, since I only have the one geared bike in italia.
Again, I think bike collectives can be useful because people can get an actual good bike used for less than the cost of a cheap crappy bike at wal-mart, and they can learn how to maintain them and therefore also save on expenses in the long run.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com wrote:
Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all kinds of trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance, and weigh something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to survive
the
ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding is done for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make sense to
stick
with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they don't
have
the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they are not
even
an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed.
I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at Wal Mart a bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes that actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. -Erik
ronald ferrucci wrote:
If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
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Yes yes yes I agree! There is so much opportunity here, both from the positive end (providing bikes that are better than Wal-Mart's) and the negative end -- attacking Wal Mart for selling those useless bikes and taking advantage of the poor.
Wouldn't it be fun to get say 500 bike shop owners to sign a letter to Wal Mart asking them to please stop selling those awful things? The press loves to beat up on Wal Mart and I say we should help them do so!
Stop the bike crime! Down with bike criminals!
Erik
Sherief wrote:
I'm starting to think now about what the minimum cost of a new bicycle along the lines we're talking about would be... It would take some research but with a decent cheap steel frame, the rest could conceivably fall in line for around $100-150, could it not? With a little work and some fine tuning between this think tank, maybe we could get something rolling and in each of our respective neighborhoods start actually competing. Thinking about here in Austin, a hopeful starting point is that we're better positioned (geographically and in the community) than any walmart to offer or promote such a bicycle to people who need bicycles.
What about build kits even, along the lines of ronald's comment? Save on the labor-intensivity of this kind of project on one hand, and offer people a discount for building up their own new bike, helping them along the way and teaching them the repair skills they should know for their new bike?
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM, ronald ferrucci <ronald.ferrucci@gmail.com mailto:ronald.ferrucci@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed. I actually meant road bike, it is 9:30 pm here in italy and I have been drinking. Also, my fingers sometimes make decisions my mind is not aware of. I do not think most people need all the gears. When I ride around in the city I use my fixed gear, because really that it all I need. Never had a problem. when I go for longer rides, I take my road bike, because I may like to be able to shift into lower gears for wind or hills or higher gears for straights and particularly downhills. Of course I am talking in the past tense, since I only have the one geared bike in italia. Again, I think bike collectives can be useful because people can get an actual good bike used for less than the cost of a cheap crappy bike at wal-mart, and they can learn how to maintain them and therefore also save on expenses in the long run. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Erik Ryberg <ryberg@seanet.com <mailto:ryberg@seanet.com>> wrote: > Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all kinds of > trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance, and weigh > something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to survive the > ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same > disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding is done > for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make sense to stick > with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they don't have > the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they are not even > an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed. > > I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at Wal Mart a > bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes that > actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. > -Erik > > > ronald ferrucci wrote: > >> If they get to >> the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will >> realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike. >> > > _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
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I've been pondering the same idea. I'm sure there will be many disagreements in what is the perfect commuter bike. I've been them looking at them a lot lately including a very nice three speed at REI. Of course this is out of the specrtum of the goal but a good starting point. http://www.rei.com/product/761468
Remember the 100 dollar mtn bike frames Nashbar sold a few years back? I imagine something like that with a basic set of components. Flat bars. Single chainring., 6-7-8 gears in the back. 700c 32 tires. all else simple yet functional.
hmmm..
On 5/29/08, Sherief sgaber@gmail.com wrote:
I'm starting to think now about what the minimum cost of a new bicycle along the lines we're talking about would be... It would take some research but with a decent cheap steel frame, the rest could conceivably fall in line for around $100-150, could it not? With a little work and some fine tuning between this think tank, maybe we could get something rolling and in each of our respective neighborhoods start actually competing. Thinking about here in Austin, a hopeful starting point is that we're better positioned (geographically and in the community) than any walmart to offer or promote such a bicycle to people who need bicycles.
What about build kits even, along the lines of ronald's comment? Save on the labor-intensivity of this kind of project on one hand, and offer people a discount for building up their own new bike, helping them along the way and teaching them the repair skills they should know for their new bike?
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM, ronald ferrucci < ronald.ferrucci@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed. I actually meant road bike, it is 9:30 pm here in italy and I have been drinking. Also, my fingers sometimes make decisions my mind is not aware of.
I do not think most people need all the gears. When I ride around in the city I use my fixed gear, because really that it all I need. Never had a problem. when I go for longer rides, I take my road bike, because I may like to be able to shift into lower gears for wind or hills or higher gears for straights and particularly downhills. Of course I am talking in the past tense, since I only have the one geared bike in italia.
Again, I think bike collectives can be useful because people can get an actual good bike used for less than the cost of a cheap crappy bike at wal-mart, and they can learn how to maintain them and therefore also save on expenses in the long run.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com wrote:
Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all kinds of trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance, and
weigh
something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to survive
the
ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding is
done
for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make sense to
stick
with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they don't
have
the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they are not
even
an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed.
I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at Wal Mart
a
bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes that actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. -Erik
ronald ferrucci wrote:
If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they will realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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Even if you build new bikes up with free labour the cost of parts
(even at wholesale) will bite you. There's no way you and I could
take a $100 frame and then add everything else and keep it under $200
total.
There's a reason pretty well all bikes are made in Asia, and most
companies that still build in N. America soon start sourcing out over
there when they want to increase production volume, which in turn
helps bring the prices down. Your basic "economy of scale"...
Case in point - those that manufacture recumbent bikes. It's a niche
market, and the prices were very high for many years, because pretty
well all the companies were glorified cottage industries. Everything
cost them more, because they could only order so many parts at once.
Shimano will charge you a lot more per item for a load of 500 rear
derailers than they will for a shipping container with 10,000.
Oh, and let's also factor in the environmental cost of new bikes.
Sure, much less than new cars, but steel tubes and chains and bars
and wheels, and plastic saddles and grips and rubber tires all have
be manufactured, and all of those processes pollute to some degree.
With all of the above, might as well do what most of our shops do -
rebuild old but still functional bikes, no?
Mark Rehder - Director re-Cycles Bicycle Co-op http://re-cycles.ca
On 29-May-08, at 4:09 PM, Michael Wolfe wrote:
I've been pondering the same idea. I'm sure there will be many
disagreements in what is the perfect commuter bike. I've been them
looking at them a lot lately including a very nice three speed at
REI. Of course this is out of the specrtum of the goal but a good
starting point. http://www.rei.com/product/761468Remember the 100 dollar mtn bike frames Nashbar sold a few years
back? I imagine something like that with a basic set of
components. Flat bars. Single chainring., 6-7-8 gears in the
back. 700c 32 tires. all else simple yet functional.hmmm..
On 5/29/08, Sherief sgaber@gmail.com wrote: I'm starting to think
now about what the minimum cost of a new bicycle along the lines
we're talking about would be... It would take some research but
with a decent cheap steel frame, the rest could conceivably fall in
line for around $100-150, could it not? With a little work and
some fine tuning between this think tank, maybe we could get
something rolling and in each of our respective neighborhoods start
actually competing. Thinking about here in Austin, a hopeful
starting point is that we're better positioned (geographically and
in the community) than any walmart to offer or promote such a
bicycle to people who need bicycles.What about build kits even, along the lines of ronald's comment?
Save on the labor-intensivity of this kind of project on one hand,
and offer people a discount for building up their own new bike,
helping them along the way and teaching them the repair skills they
should know for their new bike?On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM, ronald ferrucci
ronald.ferrucci@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. I actually meant road bike, it is 9:30 pm here in italy and I have been drinking. Also, my fingers sometimes make decisions my mind is not aware of.I do not think most people need all the gears. When I ride around in the city I use my fixed gear, because really that it all I need. Never had a problem. when I go for longer rides, I take my road bike, because I may like to be able to shift into lower gears for wind or hills or higher gears for straights and particularly downhills. Of course I am talking in the past tense, since I only have the one geared bike in italia.
Again, I think bike collectives can be useful because people can get an actual good bike used for less than the cost of a cheap crappy bike at wal-mart, and they can learn how to maintain them and therefore also save on expenses in the long run.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Erik Ryberg ryberg@seanet.com
wrote:Single-speed bikes are real bikes. Like any tool there are all
kinds of
trade-offs to be made. Brakes cost money, require maintenance,
and weigh
something, but on the other hand they are needed if you want to
survive the
ride, so most people opt to carry a set. Gears have all the same disadvantages and if you live in a flat place and all your riding
is done
for straightforward utilitarian purposes, then it might make
sense to stick
with a single speed. There's no need to tell a person that they
don't have
the sense of a child, or that they are ridiculous, or that they
are not even
an ordinary person just because they prefer a single speed.
I just wish there was a way to give the bike-criminals over at
Wal Mart a
bit of real competition, at least in a small way, with new bikes
that
actually work and that still only cost what the Magnas do. -Erik
ronald ferrucci wrote:
If they get to the point where they need and understand the gears, I think they
will
realize it is time to upgrade to a real bike.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank- bikecollectives.org
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