Our coop, The BIke Project of Urbana-Champaign in Illinois, currently bans electronic or ebikes. There is some pressure to change this policy. What kinds of policies do other coops have in regards to ebikes?
Regards,
Hey! At the bike kitchen in Vancouver we ask the client that if the bike is going to stay overnight that they remove the battery and take it away. We have a posting near the entrance of recommended local service centers for bikes we can't work on and e scooters. We carefully assess any mechanical work to be sure we can actually do the mechanical. We also discuss that we aren't responsible for any electrical failure post work. Lastly we make certain that a hub motor has a proper electrical coupling we can easily unplug.
As an aside we have Bosch and Shimano Steps certification but we haven't yet encountered the need to run any mid drive diagnostics.
Hope that helps!
Jesse Cooper
On Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 09:41 Todd Spinner via TheThinkTank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
Our coop, The BIke Project of Urbana-Champaign in Illinois, currently bans electronic or ebikes. There is some pressure to change this policy. What kinds of policies do other coops have in regards to ebikes?
Regards,
-- Todd Spinner The Bike Project
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I'll copy our general policy on e-bikes below.
Note: We had a volunteer talk to the 8 retail shops in Missoula, and get their shop policy- we then created a one pager that we can email/give to folks. That sheet has been very helpful- instead of saying 'sorry, we cannot help you,' we can at least provide a resource.
Bob Giordano, Director, Free Cycles Missoula, www.freecycles.org, 406.541.7284, Missoula Institute for Sustainable Transportation, www.strans.org, mist@strans.org
--
From the Free Cycles Missoula staff handbook:
Currently Free Cycles has been providing very limited support for ebikes- with parts, tools, work space and help for a variety of basic functions like:
Tire and tube issues- like basic flats which are harder with bigger wheels.
Brake issues- primarily the mechanical disc brakes with small adjustments for the calipers pads. This needs to be done with a conversation to be sure the patron riding the bike understands the full potential of issues surrounding brakes for ebikes.
General bike service points- like handlebar/front wheel alignment, chain issues, and shifting/derailleur issues. The focus should be helping patrons with our direct knowledge that relates to parts and service for pedal-only bikes.
We can offer tips for heavier, secure locking systems that seem to be required for the more expensive ebikes that seem to be a higher theft attractant.
We generally stop at this level of service, yet we can provide a detailed list of retail bike shops and the ebikes services they currently provide in the Missoula Area. This information was compiled after having face to face meetings with each store. See the front room information area for the ebike document.
Another note on powered bicycles: While we can help in a limited capacity with ebikes, we do not service or help with bicycles that have been outfitted with gasoline engines. The smell and danger is too high to have these motorbikes inside the shop. --
On 2024-04-17 10:40 am, Todd Spinner via TheThinkTank wrote:
Our coop, The BIke Project of Urbana-Champaign in Illinois, currently bans electronic or ebikes. There is some pressure to change this policy. What kinds of policies do other coops have in regards to ebikes?
Regards,
--
Todd Spinner The Bike Project
How do you get a Bosch and Shimano Steps certification? I'm curious :)
Claude
The Shimano Steps certification is done through their online training platform called STec. Bike shops register and employees / staff / volunteers complete the modules. The Bosch certification here in Canada is done by seminar. Usually costs money. The last one in March was $50 CAD. The parts wholesaler Live To Play has seminars once or twice a year. If you have a Live To Play account, contact your local rep about it.
Jesse Cooper (Service Manager at the Bike Kitchen, Vancouver, Canada)
On Sun, Apr 21, 2024 at 6:15 PM Claude Ferron via TheThinkTank < thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org> wrote:
How do you get a Bosch and Shimano Steps certification? I'm curious :)
Claude
--
Claude Ferron
Co-coordonnateur
La Cyclerie
claude@lacyclerie.ca
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Hi all,
Here is my advice coming from product development of an IBD ebike brand:
#1 Check your insurance policy. More and more shop insurance companies are scrutinizing ebikes in shops. See what you insurance provider has to say. They may limit ebikes to certain certifications or may outright ban them.
#2 When servicing or storing, look for ebikes with UL Certification. The main ones are going to be UL2271 and UL2849. UL2271 certification will ensure safety of the battery itself, while UL2849 tests the safety of the ebike system as a whole (batteries, chargers, controllers, and other electrical components). These certifications will come with holographic stickers and badging from the UL group on the batteries, bikes, or components. More and more insurance groups and regional regulations require UL certification for bikes stored in shops. While UL certification does not 100% ensure safe storage and use, at least they have gone through testing and validation. Follow best practices for lithium storing and charging (ex., don't leave batteries charging overnight or unsupervised, avoid temperature extremes, etc).
#3 For basic fire protection and off-gassing issues, a cease-fire waste receptacle will be a good first line defense for fire issues. The most basic will be fire proof cans with sand where smoking components or batteries can be dumped and extinguished. Also, make sure to invest in fire extinguishers capable of putting out lithium fires.
#4 Tooling and safety. Ebikes are heavy and complicated systems. Be careful when using sports stands or even standard bike stands with ebikes, as they can contribute to technician health and safety. Sports stands can create tipping issues, while standard bicycle repair stands can cause back and muscle strain. Does your shop have mechanical or electrical lift stands that can support the weight of ebikes? Also, does your shop have proper electrical repair tools and training: soldering irons, wire strippers, wire crimp sets, motor controller diagnostic tools, etc.
#5 Training. Make sure your mechanics can quickly determine what you can and can't work on. Jesse makes a good point that there are still lots of early era, low cost ebikes that have hardwired rear hub motors that are a nightmare to replace tires on. More and more ebikes are coming with hydraulic brake systems; I feel like this was typically outside of the wheelhouse for smaller co-ops in the past, but training volunteers and techs on hydraulic systems could help. Be sure everyone knows what can be done or assisted with in house, and what needs to be referred to local partner shops.
#6 What to do when it comes to recycling those ebikes? QBP and Call2Recycle are now offering national battery recycling programs. If you're in a position that you are getting more ebike donations, look in to these programs or other local e-waste programs for more information.
I know this isn't a list of current policies that you can use, but I hope the advice can help you all shape your policies in the future!
Best regards,
Brandon
There are lots of barriers to getting started repairing eBikes. Many shops won't touch them. Others don't have the expertise.
Over the past few years I have gained a little experience working with eBikes. After fixing a few eBikes, I now think that it isn't that hard to understand them and work on them.
*Local Non-Profit Rejects eBikes* My local bike non-profit does not accept eBikes. Officially the reason is that the lithium ion battery packs are considered fire risks and are not allowed by insurance nor by the building owner. Unofficially, I also suspect a neo-luddite fear and loathing of new technology. Many shops have no idea how to even get started with repairing eBikes.
*eBikes are Here to Stay* eBikes provide low-cost carbon-free transportation. Not only should community bike shops deal with eBikes, we should embrace them as low cost transportation for the masses, particularly those who are elderly, weak, infirm, or must otherwise travel distances too long for them to negotiate by pedal power alone.
Going forward, community bike shops are going to see increasing numbers of older eBikes. People are going to offer them as donations to non-profit shops. We can stay stuck in our old ways and continue to ban them from our shops, or we can learn, adapt, and make eBikes part of our lives.
Besides inertia, the biggest problems to fixing eBikes are fear of new safety risks, and lack of trained eBike mechanics. Let's consider both of these.
*Safety Risks* Should we even attempt to repair eBikes? eBikes present two types of safety risks.
First, batteries can explode and burn during charging or storage. Second, mechanics can be burned if they short-circuit an eBike battery. We need to consider how to mitigate these risks.
*Battery Chemistry Risks* Newer battery chemistries have the potential to greatly reduce the risk of battery fires. LiFePo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries are much less prone to thermal runaway than lithium ion batteries with liquid electrolytes.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809922006282
Solid state batteries are generally considered much less likely to burst into flame than current lithium ion batteries with flammable liquid electrolytes, but in the worst case solid state batteries can burn even hotter.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435122000885
*Need New Safety Procedures* The big risk of having eBikes in a shop or garage is thermal runaway in a single battery cell causing an uncontrolled fire that burns down the entire building. We need to adopt new safety procedures to minimize the risk in storing and charging battery packs. The National Bicycle Dealers' Association (NBDA) has some safety recommendations for lithium ion battery packs:
https://nbda.com/safe-lithium-ion-battery-storage-and-charging-procedures-fo...
This article recommends storing batteries in a fire-resistant storage cabinet. It also recommends not charging batteries to 100% until just before the bikes are to be ridden.
I tend to accept the NBDA guidelines simply because it is a national business organization. On the other hand, companies that make special battery pack storage lockers claim that a normal "flammables" storage cabinet isn't good enough, and that you should spend more for their beefier lithium-ion battery storage lockers.
Shops should ask their insurance providers about any additional expense for insurance covering eBikes on the premises. Some insurance companies may have their own safety recommendations regarding the safe storage of hazardous or flammable substances.
*Few People Can Fix eBikes* Lately, I have personally seen an uptick in the availability of broken but free eBikes. Nobody seems to know how to fix them.
Part of the problem is that there are so many different and incompatible designs. There are front hub drives, rear hub drives, and mid-motor drives. Parts from one bike are not likely to be compatible with another bike from a different manufacturer. The battery packs and motors may operate at different voltages.
Another problem is lack of repair information. I don't know of any manufacturer who makes freely-available electrical wiring diagrams of their products. A few systems perform startup diagnostics and display useful error codes, assuming that the system works well enough to display this information.
Some traditional shops won't touch eBikes at all. When I happened to visit my local commercial bike shop to get a headset part for an eBike, the mechanic was happy to give me some advice; however, he said (at least three times) that his insurance does not allow him to work on eBikes. He wouldn't even touch the headset on my eBike. Lucky for me, all I wanted was the missing part.
*Learning to Fix eBikes* Fortunately, there is lots of hope. I have gained some experience repairing eBikes, and think that it isn't that difficult to diagnose and repair a large class of eBike faults. Here is how I got that experience.
Once, at Burning Man, someone asked me to install an eBike conversion kit to their conventional bike. Then, various friends asked me to troubleshoot their broken eBikes. Recently, I was gifted two different broken eBikes by fellow bike mechanics who couldn't deal with all of the wires and inscrutable electronics and mysterious controllers.
I managed to fix all of these bikes. In doing so I learned that many eBikes can be easily repaired if you arm yourself with a voltmeter and learn a few facts about how eBikes work. Then you employ the same repair skills that car mechanics and computer programmers use: observe, modify, and test.
If you're still intimidated by the thought of poking around in an eBike, try to draft someone to learn about this and possibly become your shop's lead eBike mechanic. Look for someone who knows something about bicycles and computers. It is good if they have an electronics multimeter, a soldering iron, and some general electrical troubleshooting skills.
For me a good source of information on eBikes is YouTube. There are several excellent videos that explain the basics of how to repair eBikes. The basic components are a battery, a motor, a throttle and/or pedal sensor of some kind, a display, a charging system, and a whole lot of wires. Many eBikes have a cutoff switch that disables the electric motor whenever the brakes are applied.
*You Can't Fix Everything* It will make eBike repair a lot easier to contemplate, after you understand that you are not going to fix every eBike that comes to you. These things are complicated, have poor documentation, and lack troubleshooting guides. All you can do is to apply the basic repair techniques that you do know, and see what happens.
*To Be Continued?* I had planned to describe some specific eBike faults that I discovered and fixed, but this is already getting too long. It might continue in a separate thread, or perhaps I should propose an eBike repair session for the next Bike!Bike! Perhaps I am completely wrong and most shops already know how to fix eBikes.
One more thing I forgot to mention:
In my community, even non profit bike shops are required to get a business license. If your business stores more than a small amount of flammable or hazardous material, one condition of the business license is that you may be required to receive an inspection from the city fire department to make sure you are storing hazardous material in a safe manner.
Lithium ion batteries are flammables and therefore hazardous. Therefore, if your shop decides to start taking in eBikes, please make sure that you remain in compliance with all local safety regulations and inspections.
Gordon Hamachi, who volunteers at Repair Cafe Silicon Valley and Silicon Valley Bicycle Exchange
I've got a fair amount of experience with ebikes at this point. Tl;dr, the real estate crisis forced me to move somewhere distant and hilly. I use one now as my daily driver.
Ebikes are here to stay. They're everywhere.More and more are ending up as part of CBS' donation stream. And - some people really need them.
Something Gordon left out: the #1 culprit in battery fires, outside of situations where the battery or charger are damaged, is low-grade chargers.
A properly engineered charger will have circuitry that senses battery states and adjusts its output accordingly, many also feature internal fans to regulate heat. Such chargers are expensive, on the order of five times moreso than cheap, underbuilt chargers. Cheaper, and a few rush-to-market ebike manufacturers, will skimp on the charger to lower costs or hit a production window. Batteries by themselves, not in any kind of charging state, rarely if ever spontaneously combust, UL listed or not. It's charging that's the weak link.
Nobody should ever have to strategically plug and unplug a battery, the charger should be properly designed to handle every possible battery state. manually managing power cycles is only a necessity when dealing with questionable or unknown chargers (which TBH a CBS probably will be).
I think, simplifying, the flow is as follows:
Determine insurance and hazardous material compliance requirements.
- If such requirements encumber you, determine if you can accommodate
them.
- Craft a shop policy around charging and storing batteries. This should
involve a fireproof chamber for any batteries requiring long-term storage, and a fireproof area for charging. For defense-in-depth or if you're especially paranoid, there could be a policy against batteries being left to charge at all if no staff are present. Make certain to have fire extinguishers that are properly rated.
- Realize that most problems with ebikes have nothing to do with the "e"
components. They're 90% just bicycles. A great deal can be done for them addressing the mechanical issues alone.
- Realize that even electronic problems can in most cases be treated with
a mechanical mindset; process of elimination by itself can isolate faulty components, which in most cases can be simply swapped out for a new part
a mechanical process.
Craft a policy addressing deeper electronic issues. For instance, whether
or not you get into the weeds rewinding stators, using a programming cable to alter controller settings, or soldering anything may depend on your staff or volunteer competence. If you don't have anyone with electronics experience, you may want to relegate your processes exclusively to the mechanical, as defined above. Keep in mind that even if you do have knowledgeable and willing personnel, some of these deeper diagnostics and repairs can be huge time sinks, and you may want to avoid them on that basis alone.
- Lastly, start having fun in a whole new region of capabilities and creativity!
I've seen some of the coolest bike designs and ideas come from CBS environments, and we all know better than most LBS that default, factory bike design can be pretty stale and underperformant. I look forward to seeing what CBS end up doing with old ebikes over time once they become knowledgable and comfortable with the tech.
~cyclista Nicholas
participants (3)
-
Bob Giordano -
Brandon Babbitt -
Claude Ferron -
cyclista＠inventati.org -
Gordon Hamachi -
Jesse Cooper -
Todd Spinner