Taking tools out of people's hands: bad.
Let the $Man show you is ego based as is Helpless $Woman can't do anything with these thingies, I need a strong $Man to do it for me, and by the way, I brought cookies for my new hero worshipping/borderline infatuation/torturee...
$Variable: gender, identity, orientation, etc irrelevant, and stereotypes
Not sure there is a pedagogie for mechanics teaching style and skill would be an art, but diy is not the academie. Zen and the Art of, and phaedrus wants the front door.
Yep, difficult days... On Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM, "Jim" jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
From the "I have done this many times before and will show you how" to the deer in the headlights there are many types and temperaments of client. One of the fabulous aspects of bicycles is that in most cases there is two of every thing. One can demonstrate a proceeder and hand the wrench to the client and then they give it a try. There are some things that mistakes are not in the best interest of a happy out come. Like using the chain breaker for the first time. Shorting a chain and having the client practice on the scrap, or truing their wheels for them while explaining the process and then handing them a spare wheel that they can with no loss turn into a pretzel are powerful learning tools.
Each client is a different situation.
good diggin
jim
On Apr 12, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
Has your bike collective spent any time actively thinking/talking about pedagogy? What is your philosophy on hands-on learning and why? How does your philosophy fit with your mission?
Do you ever fix the bike for a person who comes in and just make them watch? Or do you fix it and then undo what you have done so that they can do it themselves? What do you do when they get frustrated?
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Resend as system thinks it's spam... Man/idiot in the middle attack also possible though not probable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "DancesWithCars" danceswithcars@gmail.com Date: Apr 12, 2015 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Pedagogy To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: "Think Tank Bike Collectives email list" < thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
Taking tools out of people's hands: bad.
Let the $Man show you is ego based as is Helpless $Woman can't do anything with these thingies, I need a strong $Man to do it for me, and by the way, I brought cookies for my new hero worshipping/borderline infatuation/torturee...
$Variable: gender, identity, orientation, etc irrelevant, and stereotypes
Not sure there is a pedagogie for mechanics teaching style and skill would be an art, but diy is not the academie. Zen and the Art of, and phaedrus wants the front door.
Yep, difficult days... On Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM, "Jim" jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
From the "I have done this many times before and will show you how" to the deer in the headlights there are many types and temperaments of client. One of the fabulous aspects of bicycles is that in most cases there is two of every thing. One can demonstrate a proceeder and hand the wrench to the client and then they give it a try. There are some things that mistakes are not in the best interest of a happy out come. Like using the chain breaker for the first time. Shorting a chain and having the client practice on the scrap, or truing their wheels for them while explaining the process and then handing them a spare wheel that they can with no loss turn into a pretzel are powerful learning tools.
Each client is a different situation.
good diggin
jim
On Apr 12, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
Has your bike collective spent any time actively thinking/talking about pedagogy? What is your philosophy on hands-on learning and why? How does your philosophy fit with your mission?
Do you ever fix the bike for a person who comes in and just make them watch? Or do you fix it and then undo what you have done so that they can do it themselves? What do you do when they get frustrated?
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Personally, I work from be reasonable, and how would I like to be treated. So this is what I've evolved to:
I use my basic maintenance syllabus as a base line. I.e. a brake problem basically gets the brake block of instruction, and they learn how to troubleshoot as we go. When they can hand's on, I have them do so. So they got a lesson, the bike got fixed, and I encourage them to take a basic maintenance class or attend the mini-clinics I now give the first hour of our Wed. night Open Shop.
In four weeks of mini-clinics I cover the same as I do in the three hour class. They're in the shop, so we ask for a donation. Then if they want, they can stay and work on their bike with assistance. The mini-clinics have no hands on teaching, show and tell only. Foe the basic class, hands on tire/tube repair, and brake maintenance/repair. Cables, chain, crank arm-pedal, and derailleur explanation/quick troubleshooting, is all show and tell. Hands on when they work on their own bike.
If they can't handle getting the lesson, well maybe it's best if they take your bike to a regular shop.
Seems to work pretty well so far. I've seen some people get really thrilled when they realize I've taught them enough they take what I've shown them and now fix the problem. Can get them excited to come back for the rest of the lessons. Because I'm there, it seems to hold down on frustration.
Ron
On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 6:36 PM, DancesWithCars danceswithcars@gmail.com wrote:
Resend as system thinks it's spam... Man/idiot in the middle attack also possible though not probable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "DancesWithCars" danceswithcars@gmail.com Date: Apr 12, 2015 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Pedagogy To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: "Think Tank Bike Collectives email list" < thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
Taking tools out of people's hands: bad.
Let the $Man show you is ego based as is Helpless $Woman can't do anything with these thingies, I need a strong $Man to do it for me, and by the way, I brought cookies for my new hero worshipping/borderline infatuation/torturee...
$Variable: gender, identity, orientation, etc irrelevant, and stereotypes
Not sure there is a pedagogie for mechanics teaching style and skill would be an art, but diy is not the academie. Zen and the Art of, and phaedrus wants the front door.
Yep, difficult days... On Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM, "Jim" jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
From the "I have done this many times before and will show you how" to the deer in the headlights there are many types and temperaments of client. One of the fabulous aspects of bicycles is that in most cases there is two of every thing. One can demonstrate a proceeder and hand the wrench to the client and then they give it a try. There are some things that mistakes are not in the best interest of a happy out come. Like using the chain breaker for the first time. Shorting a chain and having the client practice on the scrap, or truing their wheels for them while explaining the process and then handing them a spare wheel that they can with no loss turn into a pretzel are powerful learning tools.
Each client is a different situation.
good diggin
jim
On Apr 12, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
Has your bike collective spent any time actively thinking/talking about pedagogy? What is your philosophy on hands-on learning and why? How does your philosophy fit with your mission?
Do you ever fix the bike for a person who comes in and just make them watch? Or do you fix it and then undo what you have done so that they can do it themselves? What do you do when they get frustrated?
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My previous bike collective was run by a bunch of grad students with teacher training. There was a lot of "we won't do this for you", and doing a step and then undoing that step so the person could do it themselves. There was a fair bit of learner frustration, which we tried to mitigate somewhat by having food around. In 2005 I got doored in Santa Cruz and walked into my first bike collective. My first experience was being the person who expected a thing fixed and who left having done the over-my-head work myself with hands-off advice. So it's possible and that it feels really good when you do it. I also know that teaching is hard! But there are already bike shops. If people want someone else to fix their bike, there are options elsewhere. To my understanding, if someone walks into our bike collective with a broken bike, they should expect that they will be doing the hands-on work of fixing their own bike, and that we will be doing the hard work of offering guidance throughout that process. On Apr 12, 2015 5:45 PM, "Ron Kellis" ron.kellis@velocitycoop.org wrote:
Personally, I work from be reasonable, and how would I like to be treated. So this is what I've evolved to:
I use my basic maintenance syllabus as a base line. I.e. a brake problem basically gets the brake block of instruction, and they learn how to troubleshoot as we go. When they can hand's on, I have them do so. So they got a lesson, the bike got fixed, and I encourage them to take a basic maintenance class or attend the mini-clinics I now give the first hour of our Wed. night Open Shop.
In four weeks of mini-clinics I cover the same as I do in the three hour class. They're in the shop, so we ask for a donation. Then if they want, they can stay and work on their bike with assistance. The mini-clinics have no hands on teaching, show and tell only. Foe the basic class, hands on tire/tube repair, and brake maintenance/repair. Cables, chain, crank arm-pedal, and derailleur explanation/quick troubleshooting, is all show and tell. Hands on when they work on their own bike.
If they can't handle getting the lesson, well maybe it's best if they take your bike to a regular shop.
Seems to work pretty well so far. I've seen some people get really thrilled when they realize I've taught them enough they take what I've shown them and now fix the problem. Can get them excited to come back for the rest of the lessons. Because I'm there, it seems to hold down on frustration.
Ron
On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 6:36 PM, DancesWithCars danceswithcars@gmail.com wrote:
Resend as system thinks it's spam... Man/idiot in the middle attack also possible though not probable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "DancesWithCars" danceswithcars@gmail.com Date: Apr 12, 2015 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Pedagogy To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: "Think Tank Bike Collectives email list" < thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
Taking tools out of people's hands: bad.
Let the $Man show you is ego based as is Helpless $Woman can't do anything with these thingies, I need a strong $Man to do it for me, and by the way, I brought cookies for my new hero worshipping/borderline infatuation/torturee...
$Variable: gender, identity, orientation, etc irrelevant, and stereotypes
Not sure there is a pedagogie for mechanics teaching style and skill would be an art, but diy is not the academie. Zen and the Art of, and phaedrus wants the front door.
Yep, difficult days... On Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM, "Jim" jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
From the "I have done this many times before and will show you how" to the deer in the headlights there are many types and temperaments of client. One of the fabulous aspects of bicycles is that in most cases there is two of every thing. One can demonstrate a proceeder and hand the wrench to the client and then they give it a try. There are some things that mistakes are not in the best interest of a happy out come. Like using the chain breaker for the first time. Shorting a chain and having the client practice on the scrap, or truing their wheels for them while explaining the process and then handing them a spare wheel that they can with no loss turn into a pretzel are powerful learning tools.
Each client is a different situation.
good diggin
jim
On Apr 12, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
Has your bike collective spent any time actively thinking/talking about pedagogy? What is your philosophy on hands-on learning and why? How does your philosophy fit with your mission?
Do you ever fix the bike for a person who comes in and just make them watch? Or do you fix it and then undo what you have done so that they can do it themselves? What do you do when they get frustrated?
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I understand and see your point. There is also the how many folks can I help in the time, 3 hours for me on a Wed. night, available. I'd have to say that I put a safe bike ahead of making a person do all the work or them having to walk home because the work isn't finished. Some I can point to a component and say "Do this." and they're fine. Some need to be shown the difference between a common and Phillips screwdriver and if I spend all my time teaching them, what about the other 4 people in the shop when, usually, I'm the only volunteer? I'm not comfortable telling people, sorry, go away because I can only really teach one person at a time.
Food? We barely manage to keep the doors open and I usually donate between 6 and 8 hours a week. I've spent a fair amount of money on the co-op, tools, materials, etc. but I'm not inclined to bring munchies to minimize a student's frustration with waiting for the instructor to come back by.
To me this shows the very wide range of what's available in different co-ops. What works great in one, may not be the best option for someplace else. One has a great volunteer staff of well trained mechanics who can teach. I suspect most don't. So I agree with Jim "Each client is a different situation. "as is each co-op. And we do try to make it clear that the volunteers are there to help. But to me it can be a little more than just insisting the volunteers accept frustration as the cost of teaching.
And I don't type fast, so don't always make the effort to get everything out.
Anyway, I'm still learning.
Ron
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
My previous bike collective was run by a bunch of grad students with teacher training. There was a lot of "we won't do this for you", and doing a step and then undoing that step so the person could do it themselves. There was a fair bit of learner frustration, which we tried to mitigate somewhat by having food around. In 2005 I got doored in Santa Cruz and walked into my first bike collective. My first experience was being the person who expected a thing fixed and who left having done the over-my-head work myself with hands-off advice. So it's possible and that it feels really good when you do it. I also know that teaching is hard! But there are already bike shops. If people want someone else to fix their bike, there are options elsewhere. To my understanding, if someone walks into our bike collective with a broken bike, they should expect that they will be doing the hands-on work of fixing their own bike, and that we will be doing the hard work of offering guidance throughout that process. On Apr 12, 2015 5:45 PM, "Ron Kellis" ron.kellis@velocitycoop.org wrote:
Personally, I work from be reasonable, and how would I like to be treated. So this is what I've evolved to:
I use my basic maintenance syllabus as a base line. I.e. a brake problem basically gets the brake block of instruction, and they learn how to troubleshoot as we go. When they can hand's on, I have them do so. So they got a lesson, the bike got fixed, and I encourage them to take a basic maintenance class or attend the mini-clinics I now give the first hour of our Wed. night Open Shop.
In four weeks of mini-clinics I cover the same as I do in the three hour class. They're in the shop, so we ask for a donation. Then if they want, they can stay and work on their bike with assistance. The mini-clinics have no hands on teaching, show and tell only. Foe the basic class, hands on tire/tube repair, and brake maintenance/repair. Cables, chain, crank arm-pedal, and derailleur explanation/quick troubleshooting, is all show and tell. Hands on when they work on their own bike.
If they can't handle getting the lesson, well maybe it's best if they take your bike to a regular shop.
Seems to work pretty well so far. I've seen some people get really thrilled when they realize I've taught them enough they take what I've shown them and now fix the problem. Can get them excited to come back for the rest of the lessons. Because I'm there, it seems to hold down on frustration.
Ron
On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 6:36 PM, DancesWithCars <danceswithcars@gmail.com
wrote:
Resend as system thinks it's spam... Man/idiot in the middle attack also possible though not probable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "DancesWithCars" danceswithcars@gmail.com Date: Apr 12, 2015 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Pedagogy To: "The Think Tank" thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Cc: "Think Tank Bike Collectives email list" < thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
Taking tools out of people's hands: bad.
Let the $Man show you is ego based as is Helpless $Woman can't do anything with these thingies, I need a strong $Man to do it for me, and by the way, I brought cookies for my new hero worshipping/borderline infatuation/torturee...
$Variable: gender, identity, orientation, etc irrelevant, and stereotypes
Not sure there is a pedagogie for mechanics teaching style and skill would be an art, but diy is not the academie. Zen and the Art of, and phaedrus wants the front door.
Yep, difficult days... On Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM, "Jim" jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:
From the "I have done this many times before and will show you how" to the deer in the headlights there are many types and temperaments of client. One of the fabulous aspects of bicycles is that in most cases there is two of every thing. One can demonstrate a proceeder and hand the wrench to the client and then they give it a try. There are some things that mistakes are not in the best interest of a happy out come. Like using the chain breaker for the first time. Shorting a chain and having the client practice on the scrap, or truing their wheels for them while explaining the process and then handing them a spare wheel that they can with no loss turn into a pretzel are powerful learning tools.
Each client is a different situation.
good diggin
jim
On Apr 12, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Angel York aniola@gmail.com wrote:
Has your bike collective spent any time actively thinking/talking about pedagogy? What is your philosophy on hands-on learning and why? How does your philosophy fit with your mission?
Do you ever fix the bike for a person who comes in and just make them watch? Or do you fix it and then undo what you have done so that they can do it themselves? What do you do when they get frustrated?
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participants (3)
-
Angel York -
DancesWithCars -
Ron Kellis