Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation?
Please get the police involved.
Take care,
Andy Greif
From: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto:thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] On Behalf Of Tim Buckingham Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM To: Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Subject: [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation?
Police + we've banned people when they've clearly escalated beyond the scope of our control. We've taken away keys and permanent banishment with board approval.
Best, Leslie Durham Bike Co-op
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Please get the police involved.****
Take care,****
Andy Greif****
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Tim Buckingham *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM *To:* Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org *Subject:* [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc****
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.****
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation? ***
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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At the Bike Church in Santa Cruz, we "86" (ban) individuals who either steal or otherwise abuse the space. If the situation warrants it, we call the cops.
Generally, we say "your behavior is not working for the shop, and you are no longer welcome at our facility. If you would like to discuss the situation and attempt to make ammends, you can come to our collective meeting." Until they come to work things out, they are not welcome. The tough thing is, for us, keeping track of who has been banned. It is important to keep a list and make sure all the mechanics are on the same page. We have different mechanics working all the time so this can be tough. Photos of people help, but that can be tough.
Josh
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Leslie Peteya lesliepeteya@gmail.comwrote:
Police + we've banned people when they've clearly escalated beyond the scope of our control. We've taken away keys and permanent banishment with board approval.
Best, Leslie Durham Bike Co-op
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Please get the police involved.****
Take care,****
Andy Greif****
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Tim Buckingham *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM *To:* Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org *Subject:* [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc****
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.****
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation? ** **
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At MoBo, we have had to occasionally ban folks from the shop over the years. It has never been a big problem, but it has happened. I don't recall a time that we have ever called the police (though we probably would if we caught someone in the act of stealing something significant). Most of the incidents I know of have involved disrespectful/threatening behavior or habitual disregard for shop rules and community expectations. I don't think we've ever had an incident of retaliation.
My advice is to have a policy in place before you need it. Specifically, I'm thinking of a Safe Space policy and/or set of community guidelines for using the shop. These should be posted in the shop or otherwise accessible for everyone. You should also have the process for removal in writing. Doing this takes the pressure off of organizers/volunteers, who often need to feel supported by the group or a policy to take action. It also helps keep everyone on the same page about how to deal with these situations. Finally, it allows the offender to clearly see the line they have crossed, which I imagine could lead to more acceptance of the decision on their part.
One last thing: it's my personal opinion that organizations should be forthright and open with their members or community about these incidents. It's definitely important not to slander someone, but especially if your group is a cooperative or a collective, then this person has acted against everyone, and everyone should know about it.
Dugan MoBo Bike Co-op Cincinnati
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Joshua Muir muirjoshua@gmail.com wrote:
At the Bike Church in Santa Cruz, we "86" (ban) individuals who either steal or otherwise abuse the space. If the situation warrants it, we call the cops.
Generally, we say "your behavior is not working for the shop, and you are no longer welcome at our facility. If you would like to discuss the situation and attempt to make ammends, you can come to our collective meeting." Until they come to work things out, they are not welcome. The tough thing is, for us, keeping track of who has been banned. It is important to keep a list and make sure all the mechanics are on the same page. We have different mechanics working all the time so this can be tough. Photos of people help, but that can be tough.
Josh
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Leslie Peteya lesliepeteya@gmail.comwrote:
Police + we've banned people when they've clearly escalated beyond the scope of our control. We've taken away keys and permanent banishment with board approval.
Best, Leslie Durham Bike Co-op
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Please get the police involved.****
Take care,****
Andy Greif****
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Tim Buckingham *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM *To:* Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org *Subject:* [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc****
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.****
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation? *
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-- Joshua Muir muirjoshua@gmail.com
Frances Cycles http://www.francescycles.com/ Handbuilt cycling framesets Touring, Track, Road,Cross, and Cargo 203 Cedar St Santa Cruz, CA (831) 469-3369
The Bicycle Church Collective http://bikechurch.santacruzhub.org/ Community Self-Service Cycle Repair 3pm to 7pm everyday except Sunday 703 Pacific Ave (enter on Spruce St) Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (831) 425-2453
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As with any time a reprimand or critique if a person's behaviour is happening(ie, progress report, employee evaluation, corrective criticism about some misusing a chain tool, theft,) do your best to make clear that it's not the PERSON who is the problem, but the BEHAVIOUR. Granted, if its a continual thing,86'ing the person may be the only way to 86 the behaviour, but hopefully there is room for, as someone else said, leaving it open to the individual to work it out when they're ready.
I've seen the idea of banning a person come up in other radical groups and I wonder if it's as healthy for the group as it first seems. Sure, it's easier to just kick someone out who's been stealing as opposed to spending time and energy on making the stealing stop without kicking out the individual, especially where time and energy are already threadbare.
Not to thread hijack too much, but I'd be interested in hearing from folks who have worked through an issue like stealing either without banning, or where the thief came back or remained/became again a member in good standing. What have you seem work?
On Friday, June 7, 2013, Dugan Meyer wrote:
At MoBo, we have had to occasionally ban folks from the shop over the years. It has never been a big problem, but it has happened. I don't recall a time that we have ever called the police (though we probably would if we caught someone in the act of stealing something significant). Most of the incidents I know of have involved disrespectful/threatening behavior or habitual disregard for shop rules and community expectations. I don't think we've ever had an incident of retaliation.
My advice is to have a policy in place before you need it. Specifically, I'm thinking of a Safe Space policy and/or set of community guidelines for using the shop. These should be posted in the shop or otherwise accessible for everyone. You should also have the process for removal in writing. Doing this takes the pressure off of organizers/volunteers, who often need to feel supported by the group or a policy to take action. It also helps keep everyone on the same page about how to deal with these situations. Finally, it allows the offender to clearly see the line they have crossed, which I imagine could lead to more acceptance of the decision on their part.
One last thing: it's my personal opinion that organizations should be forthright and open with their members or community about these incidents. It's definitely important not to slander someone, but especially if your group is a cooperative or a collective, then this person has acted against everyone, and everyone should know about it.
Dugan MoBo Bike Co-op Cincinnati
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Joshua Muir muirjoshua@gmail.com wrote:
At the Bike Church in Santa Cruz, we "86" (ban) individuals who either steal or otherwise abuse the space. If the situation warrants it, we call the cops.
Generally, we say "your behavior is not working for the shop, and you are no longer welcome at our facility. If you would like to discuss the situation and attempt to make ammends, you can come to our collective meeting." Until they come to work things out, they are not welcome. The tough thing is, for us, keeping track of who has been banned. It is important to keep a list and make sure all the mechanics are on the same page. We have different mechanics working all the time so this can be tough. Photos of people help, but that can be tough.
Josh
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Leslie Peteya lesliepeteya@gmail.comwrote:
Police + we've banned people when they've clearly escalated beyond the scope of our control. We've taken away keys and permanent banishment with board approval.
Best, Leslie Durham Bike Co-op
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Please get the police involved.****
Take care,****
Andy Greif****
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Tim Buckingham *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM *To:* Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org *Subject:* [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc****
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.****
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation? ***
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinhttp://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
There are always tough clients, but I'd say we at the LA Bicycle Kitchen have a conversation about asking someone to leave maybe every 6 months.
If possible, "taking a break" is preferable to full on banning. For one, it's not practical for us to ban someone for life, and an unenforceable threat just turns it into a Mom said no, go ask Dad situation.
Have someone who is on good (least bad) terms with the client have a one-on-one conversation, outside of the shop in case there's a scene and to emphasize that they (or better yet, their behaviors) aren't welcome by the group. Try to be clear that you are acting on the groups behalf, it's not that "Joe says you can't come anymore".
Something like:
"We think that you've (taken things knowing it's against the rules | acted aggressively towards volunteers | taken advantage of us in some specific way). As a group we want you to take a break from the space. If you come back in the next month, you will be asked to leave."
I prefer this because it's reasonable to enforce, while still giving some real consequences to a person that maybe just feels invincible. Also, it gives them a path to be on good standing with your group in a month.
Immediately, I can think of three people that we've asked to take a break like this. One of them (a few months ago) hasn't come back. A second stayed away for 6 months or so, and now seems to be happy to follow our rules, and the third is back and raising hell all over again. Your mileage will vary.
M
Here's BICAS's latest draft of our Ban/Evict policy. It is currently under scrutiny, but it's a good start. We've had to use it a few times recently, but for physical threat or assault rather than theft. Regardless, it's one of our answers to not wanting police involvement.
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Michael Kirk michael.john.kirk@gmail.comwrote:
There are always tough clients, but I'd say we at the LA Bicycle Kitchen have a conversation about asking someone to leave maybe every 6 months.
If possible, "taking a break" is preferable to full on banning. For one, it's not practical for us to ban someone for life, and an unenforceable threat just turns it into a Mom said no, go ask Dad situation.
Have someone who is on good (least bad) terms with the client have a one-on-one conversation, outside of the shop in case there's a scene and to emphasize that they (or better yet, their behaviors) aren't welcome by the group. Try to be clear that you are acting on the groups behalf, it's not that "Joe says you can't come anymore".
Something like:
"We think that you've (taken things knowing it's against the rules | acted aggressively towards volunteers | taken advantage of us in some specific way). As a group we want you to take a break from the space. If you come back in the next month, you will be asked to leave."
I prefer this because it's reasonable to enforce, while still giving some real consequences to a person that maybe just feels invincible. Also, it gives them a path to be on good standing with your group in a month.
Immediately, I can think of three people that we've asked to take a break like this. One of them (a few months ago) hasn't come back. A second stayed away for 6 months or so, and now seems to be happy to follow our rules, and the third is back and raising hell all over again. Your mileage will vary.
M
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Bikerowave usually asks a person not to come back. The decision for a full ban has to be brought to the member meeting and the "offending person" is given an opportunity to speak their part. If they are banned it is explained to them how decisions are overturned and that they can appeal at any time to the members at a meeting to be reinstated. There has been language proposed to encourage a restorative justice approach to the "offending person" being invited back but it hasn't been used yet. At the same time, the board of facilitators can temporarily limit a member's ability to do the shop harm by asking for their keys and changing passwords if there is strong evidence that a member has done the shop harm and there is cause to believe they may do so further. This only lasts until the next member meeting. Thirdly the Head Mechanics on a particular shift are able to ask a patron not to come in on their shift. This has kept folks from the community involved with the shop and prevented some volunteer loss in the past, some folks require more patience than others and some mechanics don't have that patience. -Enzo
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Julia Kirk julia.kirk@bicas.org wrote:
Here's BICAS's latest draft of our Ban/Evict policy. It is currently under scrutiny, but it's a good start. We've had to use it a few times recently, but for physical threat or assault rather than theft. Regardless, it's one of our answers to not wanting police involvement.
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Michael Kirk <michael.john.kirk@gmail.com
wrote:
There are always tough clients, but I'd say we at the LA Bicycle Kitchen have a conversation about asking someone to leave maybe every 6 months.
If possible, "taking a break" is preferable to full on banning. For one, it's not practical for us to ban someone for life, and an unenforceable threat just turns it into a Mom said no, go ask Dad situation.
Have someone who is on good (least bad) terms with the client have a one-on-one conversation, outside of the shop in case there's a scene and to emphasize that they (or better yet, their behaviors) aren't welcome by the group. Try to be clear that you are acting on the groups behalf, it's not that "Joe says you can't come anymore".
Something like:
"We think that you've (taken things knowing it's against the rules | acted aggressively towards volunteers | taken advantage of us in some specific way). As a group we want you to take a break from the space. If you come back in the next month, you will be asked to leave."
I prefer this because it's reasonable to enforce, while still giving some real consequences to a person that maybe just feels invincible. Also, it gives them a path to be on good standing with your group in a month.
Immediately, I can think of three people that we've asked to take a break like this. One of them (a few months ago) hasn't come back. A second stayed away for 6 months or so, and now seems to be happy to follow our rules, and the third is back and raising hell all over again. Your mileage will vary.
M
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Please do not get the police involved. I have confidence that you can resolve it yourself.
Jake
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andy Greif cbcofme@gwi.net wrote:
Please get the police involved.****
Take care,****
Andy Greif****
*From:* thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org [mailto: thethinktank-bounces@lists.bikecollectives.org] *On Behalf Of *Tim Buckingham *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 12:44 PM *To:* Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org *Subject:* [TheThinkTank] Theft, punishment, etc****
Here at Broke Spoke we have had an individual who has been stealing on a regular basis and who is more self-fulfilling than actually contributing to the mission of the space. It is to the point where we think we need to ask him to leave the shop and to not return.****
Anyone have any experience with situations like this? Any retaliation? ***
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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participants (10)
-
Andy Greif -
Dugan Meyer -
jake bison -
Joshua Muir -
Julia Kirk -
Leslie Peteya -
Michael Kirk -
Tim Buckingham -
veganboyjosh＠gmail.com -
Vincenzo loco