Re: [TheThinkTank] full-timers/directors/project coordinators: how's the job treating you?
it seems the "get organized" vs. "more leftist than thou" dynamic plays out at all levels of many community bike projects. when our ed left in 2001, the 4 full time staff members stepped up to manage our organization collectively. by 2005, 3 of the 4 had left because, bottom line, they couldn't work together, and projects had dropped to the point that we'd atrophied to a single community bike shop. now, realizing that shit flows downhill and if someone's going to clean it up they should be recognized for it, we've developed a hierarchy, people have assumed managerial and coordinator roles, and we're once again getting a lot done. there are still folks who complain that there's too much structure and want to make things more egalitarian - funnily enough though, they're also the ones who rarely step up, have a hard time showing up to work their shifts and don't seem to get much done.
i love my job. its crazy and stressful some days, constantly challenging, infinitely rewarding and a hell of a lot of fun.
On 25-Nov-07, at 2:44 AM, omar wrote:
it seems the "get organized" vs. "more leftist than thou" dynamic
plays out at all levels of many community bike projects. when our
ed left in 2001, the 4 full time staff members stepped up to manage
our organization collectively. by 2005, 3 of the 4 had left
because, bottom line, they couldn't work together, and projects had
dropped to the point that we'd atrophied to a single community bike
shop. now, realizing that shit flows downhill and if someone's
going to clean it up they should be recognized for it,
hehe - thanks Omar. That's the metaphor I try to avoid, but it's
accurate. Physically so for me last week, as I cleaned the slimy,
oily gunk out of the sump under our wash-up sink. (yuck...)
we've developed a hierarchy, people have assumed managerial and
coordinator roles, and we're once again getting a lot done. there
are still folks who complain that there's too much structure and
want to make things more egalitarian - funnily enough though,
they're also the ones who rarely step up, have a hard time showing
up to work their shifts and don't seem to get much done.
Yes, indeed...
i love my job. its crazy and stressful some days, constantly
challenging, infinitely rewarding and a hell of a lot of fun.-- omar bhimji project manager pedal bike depot p. 604.708.4992
Mark
Wow! This is a great thread, with lots of thought provoking viewpoints. I would like to recommend the book, Stories From the Farm, which is first hand accounts from a hipppy farmers commune. Their struggles to maintain balance and be free of opresive hierarchy may prove relevant. besides, its often hilarious to imagine the controversies unfolding, like when the mostly vegan commune was thrown a curve ball by a member who made her own ice cream from her breast milk. Anyway, I was wondering if any co op managers have tried volunteer recognition events, like a chili dinner, or volunteer T shirts. A little recognition goes a long way, and its great for everyone in an organization to have their significance celebrated. Sometimes the people with the dirtiest hands are the most quiet. As for the "more left than thou" dynamic, it pushes people away. I have two friends I recommended to my local bike co op. They both felt they were treated poorly, for not being "cool enough". One friend laughed it off, and the other just thought it was so cool that the hobos were being treated well that she forgave all the "bigger fan of Noam Chompsky than you" attitude. But they will not be back. In an age so dominated by the petrochemical industry, riding a bike is the revolution. Where are we going to get tires after the oil collapse anyway? PEACE BE WITH YOU! Art B. (hermit who fixes bikes in his garage)
From: mark@drumbent.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:53:42 -0500> To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] full-timers/directors/project coordinators: how's the job treating you?> > On 25-Nov-07, at 2:44 AM, omar wrote:> > > it seems the "get organized" vs. "more leftist than thou" dynamic > > plays out at all levels of many community bike projects. when our > > ed left in 2001, the 4 full time staff members stepped up to manage > > our organization collectively. by 2005, 3 of the 4 had left > > because, bottom line, they couldn't work together, and projects had > > dropped to the point that we'd atrophied to a single community bike > > shop. now, realizing that shit flows downhill and if someone's > > going to clean it up they should be recognized for it,> > > hehe - thanks Omar. That's the metaphor I try to avoid, but it's > accurate. Physically so for me last week, as I cleaned the slimy, > oily gunk out of the sump under our wash-up sink. (yuck...)> > > we've developed a hierarchy, people have assumed managerial and > > coordinator roles, and we're once again getting a lot done. there > > are still folks who complain that there's too much structure and > > want to make things more egalitarian - funnily enough though, > > they're also the ones who rarely step up, have a hard time showing > > up to work their shifts and don't seem to get much done.> > > Yes, indeed...> > > i love my job. its crazy and stressful some days, constantly > > challenging, infinitely rewarding and a hell of a lot of fun.> >> > -- > > omar bhimji> > project manager> > pedal bike depot> > p. 604.708.4992> > Mark> _______________________________________________> Thethinktank mailing list> Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
hey everybody. just wanted to contribute to this discussion. i can respect other people's cynicism about opposing hierarchy: it seems quite often that people who demand that setup are going to be unwilling to address its consequences. on the other hand, the bike dump has worked this way since its inception two and a half years ago, and we are still going strong, without relying on an insular or cliquey group of volunteers.
i mentioned our subcommittees for dealing with various aspects of the shop's functioning in my last email. it's not always fun: we also rotate who cleans the bathroom among all of our active volunteers!
still, for us it is totally worthwhile to create our shop in the same way we'd like our world to be: minimizing (and hopefully eliminating) anyone's dominance over anyone else, or coercion of anyone else.
as some other people have pointed out, the main roadblock to this kind of setup is accountability. non-hierarchy SHOULD NOT MEAN non-accountability. people need to follow through on what they say they're going to follow through on, and mechanisms need to be developed to make sure this happens. but it doesn't require a boss. at least-- not for us.
one other important thing, though, is that aiming for non-hierarchy and equality does not mean that you can assume people are the same as each other. they're unique. they have different talents, skills, capacities, interests, and amounts of free time. this needs to be recognized in a way that doesn't force everyone into the same mold, which always ends up reflecting the people in the majority or the dominant society. deciding you're "a collective" also is not going to eliminate any informal power imbalances. my class, race, gender, and educational background give me a buttload more power than almost anyone else who works at our shop, no matter how non-hierarchical we say we are. keeping this in the open, and being aware of it when making decisions also goes a long way.
okay, i'm not trying to make myself feel good by being "more leftist than you", or to showboat, or anything, but i think this stuff is actually pretty important, and i appreciate the discussion from all ends.
take care everyone, macho http://bike-dump.ca
I think Macho has hit the nail on the head in many respects, but I find his attitude toward declarations of the necessity for hierarchy too sympathetic--in particular, accusations such as those so flippantly leveled by Jay Varner and Mark Rehder. Their patronizing attitude of leftist theory vs. praxis is exactly the type of pompousness that breeds coercive hierarchy, the consequences of which stretch well beyond the walls of our bike shops.
Rehder declares simply "good luck" to those who have been working tirelessly, uncompromisingly, and quite effectively on projects that don't depend on the singular power of someone such as himself. The fact is, these projects do exist even if he would prefer not to acknowledge them. Like Macho says, "no hierarchy" is by no means the same as "no accountability" and "no structure".
This thread is hinting at something much deeper than the question of hierarchy. In the end I feel it is a division between those who see the goal of their project as "more bikes on the streets no matter what" and those who feel we are working toward something more, like creating institutions and community spaces that resemble the type of egalitarian society we are trying to build brick by brick. I have found that folks who advocate hierarchy in their shops are much more likely to be of the mind that bikes and bike shops are an end rather than a means to a much greater good. How else can hierarchy be justified by pointing to the filling of higher quotas of bikes and open shop hours?
Adam, the only division I can perceive is from those that seem to
wear their political beliefs on their sleeve, and chastise others for
not believing with them quite as stridently. And how can you say
that I prefer not to acknowledge that the completely egalitarian
projects you describe exist? I know that they do, and I'm glad that
they do, so please don't put words in my mouth.
Believe it or not, I would prefer to have no hierarchy. I would like
to just be one of the people at the shop that help make it happen,
but in the case of our particular group it so happens that someone is
needed to keep an eye on things. I'm sorry you don't like that, but
if you can avoid pointing fingers at people then we can all get
along. I simply reported on what it takes to make OUR group happen.
I don't think it's the only way, but just the way it came out for
us. If your group functions with good accountability then kudos to
you. I think your method is admirable, but generally much harder to
make happen.
Our hierarchy is a minimal as it gets. In terms of care-taking I can
only remind the group of things that need doing, or to inquire after
people that have not done what they said they'd do. (How does you
group deal with that?) I certainly can't order anyone around or be
The Boss, as they'd rightly just laugh at me. But our group knows we
need someone in this role, and when I said I'd have to step down
after four years of volunteering if I could not get a little
compensation 14 out of the 15 core people agreed with it (and the
dissenter eventually came on board once his views were accommodated).
We strive to be consensus-driven, and in addition to our core email
list we had informal monthly meetings for many years to set policy
and get our act together.
And I will freely admit that one of our shop's goals is to process as
many bikes as possible, but this is only because we get so many
coming in that if we don't deal with them they just pile up and
overflow our limited space. I have no quotas to fill, and we simply
do our best to respond to the needs of our local cycling community.
Mark
On 26-Nov-07, at 2:27 PM, Adam Weber wrote:
I think Macho has hit the nail on the head in many respects, but I find his attitude toward declarations of the necessity for hierarchy too sympathetic--in particular, accusations such as those so flippantly leveled by Jay Varner and Mark Rehder. Their patronizing attitude of leftist theory vs. praxis is exactly the type of pompousness that breeds coercive hierarchy, the consequences of which stretch well beyond the walls of our bike shops.
Rehder declares simply "good luck" to those who have been working tirelessly, uncompromisingly, and quite effectively on projects that don't depend on the singular power of someone such as himself. The fact is, these projects do exist even if he would prefer not to acknowledge them. Like Macho says, "no hierarchy" is by no means the same as "no accountability" and "no structure".
This thread is hinting at something much deeper than the question of hierarchy. In the end I feel it is a division between those who see the goal of their project as "more bikes on the streets no matter what" and those who feel we are working toward something more, like creating institutions and community spaces that resemble the type of egalitarian society we are trying to build brick by brick. I have found that folks who advocate hierarchy in their shops are much more likely to be of the mind that bikes and bike shops are an end rather than a means to a much greater good. How else can hierarchy be justified by pointing to the filling of higher quotas of bikes and open shop hours? _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank- bikecollectives.org
Do any of you have a mission statement? it is a great thing to have written up and put on a wall, so that you can refer to it as a reference point. If a large part of your purpose as a co op is to oppose economic structures based on scarcity, or paradigims based on status, or environmental degradation, put it in there and read it every once in a while to remind everyone why the group started. If its just to promote bikes and provide them at minimal cost, it will be much easier than taking on broader issues. But is it worth doing? Oh hell yeah, we are only a few centuries removed from total feuadalism and unfortunately the neo cons are pushing the world back to it as fast as they can. Good luck and godspeed! I am impressed to no end by institutions like KGNU in Boulder Co (KGNU.org) which has hundreds of volunteers, 5 full time workers, and plays the most progressive programing anywhere. Kudos to them! There is also a great non profit Music school in Denver called Swallow Hill. They bring amazing music and classes to Denver. For over 20 years no less. I would love to see basic human needs like music and food and clothing and heat brought to us all through co operation. Ok, time to ride bike now, Art
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:27:40 -0600> From: adamlweber@gmail.com> To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] full-timers/directors/project coordinators: how's the job treating you?> > I think Macho has hit the nail on the head in many respects, but I> find his attitude toward declarations of the necessity for hierarchy> too sympathetic--in particular, accusations such as those so> flippantly leveled by Jay Varner and Mark Rehder. Their patronizing> attitude of leftist theory vs. praxis is exactly the type of> pompousness that breeds coercive hierarchy, the consequences of which> stretch well beyond the walls of our bike shops.> > Rehder declares simply "good luck" to those who have been working> tirelessly, uncompromisingly, and quite effectively on projects that> don't depend on the singular power of someone such as himself. The> fact is, these projects do exist even if he would prefer not to> acknowledge them. Like Macho says, "no hierarchy" is by no means the> same as "no accountability" and "no structure".> > This thread is hinting at something much deeper than the question of> hierarchy. In the end I feel it is a division between those who see> the goal of their project as "more bikes on the streets no matter> what" and those who feel we are working toward something more, like> creating institutions and community spaces that resemble the type of> egalitarian society we are trying to build brick by brick. I have> found that folks who advocate hierarchy in their shops are much more> likely to be of the mind that bikes and bike shops are an end rather> than a means to a much greater good. How else can hierarchy be> justified by pointing to the filling of higher quotas of bikes and> open shop hours?> _______________________________________________> Thethinktank mailing list> Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org> http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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Adam Weber -
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omar