"I have a question: Is there any person who claims, or will admit, that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him or her ? ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually true for some people??"
Okay, I fess up: I find it rather exciting--although I don't know if that is because of the saddle or just because I find bikes in general pretty exciting! :)
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Wendy Monroe wendy.monroe@usermail.comwrote:
HI Fhar, What a fascinating post... I will try to respond as well as I can.. sorry if this is a bit rambling...
I would *love* to know more about the Egyptian bike advocacy group, and especially to see any photos you might have of the tricked-out desert Oasis bikes!
I too, have a bike that is unusual, by local standards, an orange and black Tiger-striped Bernie Mikkelsen frame with a Sturmey 3-speed hub and an old Super Record derailleur as a chain tensioner. It reminds me of 'home,' Berkeley, California.
In contrast to the reactions of kids in Cairo, Dutch people are horrified by this bike, and find it very ugly. They think it has too many colors! ( ie it should be all black!)
It is true, getting a drivers' license in Holland is an expensive proposition... €1900 euros for mandatory driving instruction, and the traffic theory book one must study is hundreds of pages long... ( and in Dutch) I have been pondering whether it would be worth it to try, myself.
About the Fatwa... I am a little nervous about even discussing this with my friend Mina.. for fear of sounding insensitive.. I grew up in Berkeley in the 60's where ALL religions were treated as fairy tales... except ones such as EST... I will approach this subject very delicately... for fear of making a faux pas.
Before reading the link Christine posted, I had no idea there was serious *discussion* of sexuality vis a vis bike saddles, , let alone *different factions* in this debate!
Any woman knows that in fact the 'sit-bones' of the back of one's pelvis are what contacts the saddle, but apparently, no one is asking US.
Also, you may be well aware of the relationship in the U.S. between Amelia Bloomers' invention of pants that women could wear *based on a Turkish Design, *I might add... and women's being able to politically organize by bicycle and getting the right to vote in 1927. It may not have been possible, if women had not been riding bicycles...
Yes, there is a long history of women's gaining increased mobility and freedom via bike riding...
( Google translate *does* get a little vague when translating from Arabic....)
I have a question: Is there *any person* who claims, or will admit, that riding on a bike saddle is personally sexually exciting for him or her ?
ie: Is this a figment of a cleric's imagination, or is this actually *true
- for some people??
(Or, am I missing out on something?!)
There is a Dutch-made saddle, that I now have an *entirely different understanding about.*.. I had thought this was designed for riding over cobblestones!
Fhar, I am going to have to sit down and thoroughly read both the articles you sent links to, then think about what was probably meant, ask my friend Mina about her perspective, then I will ask you about any remaining questions, if you don't mind.
Does the original version of the first article mention motorcycles at all, or should I substitute 'bicycle' for every time I see 'motorcycle.' ?
Riding *them* is no doubt a very different experience, I would be surprised to see them put in the same category as bikes...
Uh oh, my husband, who is from Washington DC, says it is a particularly dangerous place for bike riding.
Congratulations on your plan to do bicycle advocacy work there.. but please be careful!
High Five, Fhar!
met vriendelijke groeten,
Wendy
Op Mar 10, 2009, om 1:12 PM heeft Fhar Miess het volgende geschreven:
Wendy,
This is a very interesting problem, and I don't think it would be culturally insensitive to "try to win the immigrant population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle". I'm currently living in Cairo where there is a group of Egyptians who are doing bicycle advocacy. There is nothing particularly evocative of "western hegemony" in it (until they start talking about traffic laws, anyway), although there might be an argument that it is somewhat classist. Also, the truth of the matter is that it seems to be a simple matter of mobility and freedom of movement in a place where they find it difficult to get a drivers license and cycling is more the norm anyway. They likely have more interest in socializing because that's the reason for mobility in the first place: to facilitate socializing.
I think as long as you remain aware of the particular obstacles facing the Arabic-speaking immigrant community, there is nothing insensitive about it. You shouldn't worry about that fatwa. It was issued by a Saudi Wahhabi cleric who, in an internet search, has nothing to his name except the Elaph article you mention (Elaph is also a Saudi-funded publication, it should be noted) and another media article about that fatwa. The guy is a one-hit-wonder in the world of ultra-conservative Islam and his "fatwawawa" should be treated with an appropriate level of scorn.
Nevertheless, some Muslim women in Holland will take this fatwa seriously, and the Elaph article mentions an Iraqi woman living in Holland for 9 years who is among these. The key would be, if the issue comes up, to simply acknowledge the fatwa and indicate where it comes from and point out that, as that second article mentions, neither the Quran nor the hadiths ever forbade women from riding mules. The membership of the Egyptian cycling club/advocacy organization I mentioned is majority female, the majority of whom are, in turn, wearing the hijab. From a religious perspective, it should be even less of a problem with the Moroccan immigrants you mention, most of whom will be adherents to the Maliki school of Islamic law, and thus paying far more attention to fatwas from the Mufti of Al-Azhar in Cairo (I'll do some digging to see if he has anything to say about "the sexuality of the saddle"), or even more likely to the advice of the incredibly popular (especially in the "West") Muslim televangelist Amr Khaled, who I'm sure would never suggest something so idiotic (not that he doesn't suggest plenty of idiotic things).
In any case, the Elaph article focuses more on the practical (non-religious) difficulties facing Arab immigrant women trying to learn to ride a bike in Holland. The Google Translate version is here:
Automatic translators are pretty poor with Arabic (they confuse "nationality" and "sexuality" for instance), so if you're interested, I can do a proper translation (or summary anyway). The other article about the fatwa is more intelligible through Google Translate and can be found here:
As for the status value of a bike, I'm not sure about Morocco, but here in Egypt, it depends quite a lot on age, class and urbanization. Teens are less likely to be interested in bikes, as are those from higher classes, as are those from the city. When I was in Upper Egypt and the desert oases, kids up to the early teens had some pretty tricked-out rigs that made it evident they took a lot of pride in them. Even in the center of Cairo, youth of all ages, everyone in fact, is as impressed with a little bit of old-school bike bling as anywhere else, perhaps even more so. I'm constantly having to turn down offers for people to buy my steel frame bike with fancy lugs. Show kids anything other than the cheapo mass-produced Chinese and Indian bikes that populate the streets here and they get excited. I'm guessing it would be the same in Holland. It doesn't necessarily have to be "boutique", just out of the ordinary.
Anyway, hope this all helps and sorry for being so verbose. When I move to Washington DC in the summer, I'm hoping to get involved with Arab immigrant solidarity work and helping to establish a bike collective, so this issue sits at the nexus of my two biggest passions at the moment.
Best of luck and keep us posted!
Fhar
On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wendy Monroe wrote:
HI Christine, Thanks for the links... they are certainly food for thought. Would it show cultural insensitivity on my part to try to win the immigrant population of Amsterdam Noord over to the cycling lifestyle?
One thing I have personally observed... the women who show up at the bicycle lessons are not really enthused about the cycling *itself*. It is more that they get a chance to hang out and mingle together outside their homes.
*This* research result ( In the German study) does not surprise me: '*Even after comprehensive training and instruction, cycling is for many of them an “uncanny,” “dangerous,” and also “weird” activity predominantly reserved for the ethnic Dutch'*
Yup, that would explain a few things...
I used to think that, given the vast sums of money spent by the Dutch government .. *tens* of millions of euros each year!!... to encourage immigrant women to ride bikes, a more effective campaign might be to instead send teams of cyclists to rove around major cities in Holland, handing out 20 euro notes, to each woman seen riding along with a head scarf on...every single day.
I am also wondering how well an earn-a-bike program might go over in a youth population of Moroccans,... *' where the bicycle has a bad image and little status value..'*
Would they even *show up* for such a program?
I'm thinking an earn-a-bike program might be a tough sell, unless it is marketed as job-training of sorts, for a future career of repairing scooters and cars. It is a sorry state of affairs, to those of us who came from a California-style bike culture. But it may be the social reality here.
Oh Noooo... I just started reading the second article...( thanks, Google Translate!)
"The latest controversy reported by the website Elaph.com "(29/12/207) is a sad illustration, verging on the ridiculous, as was the fatwa on" nursing major.http://74.125.79.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.mediarabe.info/spip.php%3Farticle741&prev=_t&usg=ALkJrhjQ2pdqUXyT_9KPE9CJ64ZAAgH-uw "Indeed, the last discovery of a fatwa that forbids Muslim women to practice cycling, because according to the religion that spread, "*straddle the saddle of the bicycle engender women as sexual arousal, and the bike becomes this point of view, a prohibited object. "*
My first reaction being, ' Oh *damn*, now Men know our Secret!!' (Just kidding.)
I don't even know what to say, after reading THAT. I guess I will sign off and read the rest of that article...
cheers,
Wendy _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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