Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Other communities donate time to things they cherish. All races and earning levels donate time to the religious practice of their choice. That is universal. Bikes, sadly, are not cherished universally by all communities.
Owning a house is focused more in some communities and the car is just a
tool to get to work. Owning a fancier car has a greater focus in some
communities and owning property is less of a focus. Of course this is a generalization
and there are always exceptions.
In either rich or poor a community where there is more focus on the car as a status symbol; the bike is less likely to be Cherished. How many Yuppies or true upper crust volunteers do you have? Any Trumps?, Hiltons?, Pritzkers? They all have the money to stop working and volunteer at your bike program. But sadly they do not cherish the bicycle.
So for a communities that do not cherish the bicycle, you need to invite the
local community members into you bike shop if you want diversity. The bike
program should offer adult training and have OBIOUS ways for the adults to
volunteer to work on bikes, teach youth, sell bikes, teach other adults, work on
inventory, work on web sites, spread the message to the community, help with
business contacts, help with volunteers and what ever you need to be
successful.
I have had special classes for women taught by women that liked my classes.
Not all women want the first classes to be with men. They what to do it "on
there own" and want to have a like minded teacher, not a person who does a
project for them. They want self sufficiency and to feel supported. We need to
support the needs of a diverse community, if we want them to come and be part
of our shops.
If they do not love the bike now, you will have to teach them LOVE OF DA
BIKE! and give them oppertunity.
Christopher Wallace Chicago
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000...
48)
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org wrote: BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
When I went to college I was a poor white kid from rural Oregon on a scholarship to a fancy East Coast private university. Everybody I met there had more money than I did.
During the summers they all went off to unpaid internships in NY or LA. I had similar offers, but there was just no way I could afford to do that, move to NYC for three months with no pay.
When my friends graduated they got jobs at these places and I ended up working at a bakery.
That's what Kyle was talking about. And as an aside he made the leap, perhaps disputed by some here, that people who are not white are more often among those who don't have a lot of money.
Maybe you don't agree, but all he was saying is that if you pay people, then you will be more likely to find class and probably race diversity on your staffs. True? False? Maybe? I don't know, but it makes logical sense, and it seems possible to agree with him or disagree with him without being a racist.
Erik Ryberg
ien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote: > Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a > lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement. > Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit. Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males. I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us. Peace, Andy -- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104 Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.orgNever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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wait, what? how does big brothers/sisters being mostly female in your area prove that white privilege isn't a factor in bike shops?
macho
Bruce Lien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote: > Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a > lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement. > Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit. Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males. I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us. Peace, Andy -- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104 Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
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What about nurotypical privilege? How many of you volunteer for Special Olympics? Huh? Bruce does! Right ON! I want to say that in spite of their elitist hipster fashion sense, Denvers Derailer makes bilingual flyers, very crucial in the age of the immigrant scapegoat. By the way, at all triathlons I have raced (yes, im aware that screams privileged, even if I do it on the cheap) Women racers outnumber men and pass many of us up. Sponsor an athlete from your community/CO-OP? So, my advice is to keep things improving and not get lost in blame and guilt and being judgmental. CAB
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:09:02 -0600 From: macho@resist.ca To: thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Volunteering time
wait, what? how does big brothers/sisters being mostly female in your area prove that white privilege isn't a factor in bike shops?
macho
Bruce Lien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
*/Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org/* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote: > Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a > lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement. > Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit. Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males. I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us. Peace, Andy -- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104 Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
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Macho: Go back and read Kyle's original point which was the dominance of white guys in bike coops who must be from privileged circumstances that allow them to volunteer their time. My point is people of both genders volunteer in various positions that suit their interests. Actually working on bikes has a greater appeal to males than to most (but not all) females. To conjecture that "white privilege" is a factor in bike shops says little about the wages most full- and part-time employees make in bike shops. Walk in to your local bike shop or even bike cooperative for that matter and ask anyone you meet their how many of them feel they are of privileged circumstances that allow them these jobs. My LBS friends work hard, love what they do, enjoy the shop discounts, and don't make enough money to become wealthy. Those that volunteer because they want to make a difference in helping others. That is the bottom line, without calling them privileged. We need to welcome any and all volunteers without pointing any fingers or implying anything derogatory. Bruce
Macho Philipovich macho@resist.ca wrote: wait, what? how does big brothers/sisters being mostly female in your area prove that white privilege isn't a factor in bike shops?
macho
Bruce Lien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
*/Andy Dyson /* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote: > Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to 'donate' a > lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement. > Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit. Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males. I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us. Peace, Andy -- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104 Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
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dear friends,It is interesting to me, first of all, that this conversation--initially about the pros/cons of paying employees--has become a forum for discussion of race and gender. Who knew such passion and divisiveness was lurking there under our frozen february chats about cheap helmets and the best patch kits? It excites me, frankly, because I feel hopeful that we can have discussions of this type in ways that foster critique and solutions, rather than devolve into self righteousness and antipathy. I don't think that we've lost that possibility for good will and inventiveness yet, and I haven't been offended by the characterizations of my post--though I appreciate all of the msgs that folks have sent me off list to make sure my feelings weren't hurt, etc. Allegations of myopia don't phase me, and if discussing white privilege is the most "racist" thing I ever say, I would die happy. Sadly, as a white male in late capitalist america, racism and patriarchy pervade my consciousness--I'm just hoping to call out (my) privilege when I can see it. I want to reiterate that I am not attacking anyone here, least of all the folks that have dedicated their lives to building the spaces that we all hold so dear. None of these projects would have got off the ground without an overwhelming amount of volunteered time. "Volunteered" doesn't even cut it, because that word implies a sort of separation of self and project--a sort of quasi-religious altruism that really fails to describe the outstanding ways in which certain people have dedicated their whole self to these bike shops. Without these people, our projects would fold or, worse, simply suck. The logic of capitalism--that your time, your very life on earth, must be exchanged for your livelihood--is a brutal and terrifying burden, and the world in which each of us does only what (s)he is paid to do, and nothing more (nothing, that is, for love) is a frightening and bleak one indeed. The point, rather, is to try to investigate ways to make our shops more accessible to lots of different folks. One way that some shops have attempted to do this is to pay their staff, based on the logic that individuals of ethnic and/or gender minority are less likely to be able to spare 20 hours a week without compensation. I'm not a statistician, and I've only visited a handful of bike projects, but the theory seems sound to me. And experientially, it rings true. There is no need to be monolithic here; I'm not telling anyone what to do. We aren't one big organization, and that is to our benefit. Rhyzomatic and experimental, our projects can flourish with different tactics in different situations. But we should probably be able to ask questions about race and gender and class and feel safe about it. I'm a white dude, so, like a lot of things, it's safer for me than for some folks. When I talk about privilege, I'm not talking about being a millionaire. It might be as simple as being comfortable eating out of the dumpster. I mean shit, that's what has allowed me, and a lot of my mostly white, often male friends to volunteer lots of time on stuff. Whereas latino youth in our shop think its gross to eat apples out of the dumpster--or they think other people will think it is gross. Maybe my privilege protects me by letting me say, 'yeah, I'm gross; fuck you very much'. And maybe if you are black or brown or queer or female--that is, maybe if you are statistically more likely to have hunger breathing down your neck--you are less likely to eat trash "because you can". That doesn't mean I'm wrong for eating the dumpstered apple (and use the $1 it saved me by not wage working, instead "volunteering"), but I'm not gonna push that apple on anyone, and I don't want to tell someone they can't work with me 'cuz they ain't punk enough. Finally, I am sceptical about assertions that (in Bruce's words) "working on bikes has a greater appeal to males than to most (but not all) females." Completely aside from the essentialization of gender that such statements entail, we might recognize that working on bikes affords men a slew of benefits that aren't so clearly offered to women. Foremost is the sense that men have (by Bruce's own words) that wrenching on bikes might mean a (paid) job in a shop later. Not seeing a lot of women in professional bike shops, women probably don't see this so much as valuable career training. Whereas in the Big Brothers/Big Sisters scenario that Bruce points out earlier (in which %75 of volunteers are female), young women probably do see a lot of gainfully employed women doing that kind of work (how many male social workers do you know?). Even for the young male who has no interest, aptitude, nor intention of working as a mechanic, becoming conversant in bicycles allows him to enter into the whole (kinda macho) cult of cycling as an authority. These days, with hipsters on track bikes dictating culture, that's a lot of cache. But that is a conversation that historically ignores and marginalizes women's voices, and until we overthrow patriarchy, it probably will continue to do so. Offering wages to staff members won't solve all these problems, but I can't see how it hurts. And I don't see why anyone, regardless of what motivates her/him to spend time in a community bike shop, would turn down that wage. We've demonstrated to our communities how much they need us--that's why near strangers walk up and thank you everyday on the street--they no doubt also value us enough to pay us a living wage. Once again, sorry for all the words. I tried to edit, but its 3 am, and I gotta open BICAS at noon. love and strong tail winds, kyle
On Feb 8, 2008 12:14 PM, Bruce Lien bikedadlien@yahoo.com wrote:
Macho: Go back and read Kyle's original point which was the dominance of white guys in bike coops who must be from privileged circumstances that allow them to volunteer their time. My point is people of both genders volunteer in various positions that suit their interests. Actually working on bikes has a greater appeal to males than to most (but not all) females. To conjecture that "white privilege" is a factor in bike shops says little about the wages most full- and part-time employees make in bike shops. Walk in to your local bike shop or even bike cooperative for that matter and ask anyone you meet their how many of them feel they are of privileged circumstances that allow them these jobs. My LBS friends work hard, love what they do, enjoy the shop discounts, and don't make enough money to become wealthy. Those that volunteer because they want to make a difference in helping others. That is the bottom line, without calling them privileged. We need to welcome any and all volunteers without pointing any fingers or implying anything derogatory. Bruce
*Macho Philipovich macho@resist.ca* wrote:
wait, what? how does big brothers/sisters being mostly female in your area prove that white privilege isn't a factor in bike shops?
macho
Bruce Lien wrote:
I see Kyle's point as tunnel vision. Look at other areas reliant on volunteers and you will see many females, in some cases overwhelmingly. Case in point: the local chapter of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization reported their volunteers by gender composition is 75% female, 25% male. That should shoot the theory of white boys being privileged and in positions to volunteer. It is the bike business in general that attracts males to the sport. Don't believe me then take a look at the staff at any bike shop for your random sample. Females are a breath of fresh air to the sport of cycling and bike riding in general. But look also to the junior ranks of any state cycling organization and you will find many more males than females. Credit to those that volunteer and here is wishing more would join us, especially females. bikedad
*/Andy Dyson /* wrote:
BovineOaks@aol.com wrote:
Being white gives us privileges that might make it easier to
'donate' a
lot of time to a project you love. Nice racist statement.
Some great points in your post, Christopher, but it's the first line I have a problem with. I think that if you're going to call someone a racist you should do so in a more direct and clear way, for all of our benefit.
Perhaps I'm just not smart, but sarcasm like the above leaves me wondering exactly what about Kyle's post you thought was racist and why. There are various interpretations I could think of, but why people in our community are calling each other racists is not an area where I want to jump to any conclusions. I do actually want to know what you think, because I don't think that Kyle was denying that people of all backgrounds volunteer, rather that privilege exists and it makes things easier for young, white males.
I think that the whole point of Kyle's post is to draw attention to the existence of privilege, something that, in my experience, is not obvious to all of us.
Peace,
Andy
-- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling
Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org
Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104
Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288 _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
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participants (7)
-
Andy Dyson -
BovineOaks＠aol.com -
Bruce Lien -
CLINTON BIGGS -
Erik Ryberg -
kyle mckinley -
Macho Philipovich