Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
Your responsible for your work, and if you forgot to do it right, and damage resulted, you and or you group is responsible. Just pay for your mistake and move on.
As shops we must stand behind our work, or the quality of our whole bike repair mission is worthless.
Bill Wright Burton
On Jun 3, 2014, at 4:46 AM, "Cassiope Sydoriak" cassiope@bsbcoop.org wrote:
Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
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We've talked about but never implemented this:
At our Co-op we have a sign in sheet for everyone working in the shop. We have considered (and probably will) have a large printed out waiver above it that outlines some basic liability info. As for the specifics of that waiver - t.b.d. we would have to conform to our local 'WorkSafe BC' organisation requirements likely.
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Cassiope Sydoriak cassiope@bsbcoop.org wrote:
Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
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At Sacramento Bicycle Kitchen, we post our Code of Conduct which lists all the rules and emphasizes the fact that we are all volunteers and not professional mechanics on large signs posted above the check-in desk and then we also have all patrons sign the attached waiver. We used to do them all on paper but that was a nightmare so I recently converted the waiver to an electronic waiver that is hosted by Waiver Forever; see the electronic version here- http://waiver.fr/p-ZSH4h
We have an IPad set up that syncs up all the waivers with the WF online dashboard and WF also has a plug-in that works in Chrome to automatically populate some info into Freehub to simplify the profile creation process. We only have patrons sign waivers during their first visit. While there have been issues with repairs and the occasional disgruntled patron, we have never had anyone contest the waiver.
Hope this helps.
-Shannon SBK
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:58 PM, AMS Bike Co-op info@bikecoop.ca wrote:
We've talked about but never implemented this:
At our Co-op we have a sign in sheet for everyone working in the shop. We have considered (and probably will) have a large printed out waiver above it that outlines some basic liability info. As for the specifics of that waiver - t.b.d. we would have to conform to our local 'WorkSafe BC' organisation requirements likely.
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Cassiope Sydoriak cassiope@bsbcoop.org wrote:
Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
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-- *Étienne Hossack* Programs Assistant
AMS Bike Co-op University of British Columbia 604-822-BIKE (2453) | bikecoop.ca | @ubcbike
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Hi,
Ive attached the our liability waiver from the Bicycle Kitchen in Los Angeles. It was written by our unofficial lawyer/volunteer.
Matt
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Shannon Southwood < shannon@sacbikekitchen.org> wrote:
At Sacramento Bicycle Kitchen, we post our Code of Conduct which lists all the rules and emphasizes the fact that we are all volunteers and not professional mechanics on large signs posted above the check-in desk and then we also have all patrons sign the attached waiver. We used to do them all on paper but that was a nightmare so I recently converted the waiver to an electronic waiver that is hosted by Waiver Forever; see the electronic version here- http://waiver.fr/p-ZSH4h
We have an IPad set up that syncs up all the waivers with the WF online dashboard and WF also has a plug-in that works in Chrome to automatically populate some info into Freehub to simplify the profile creation process. We only have patrons sign waivers during their first visit. While there have been issues with repairs and the occasional disgruntled patron, we have never had anyone contest the waiver.
Hope this helps.
-Shannon SBK
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:58 PM, AMS Bike Co-op info@bikecoop.ca wrote:
We've talked about but never implemented this:
At our Co-op we have a sign in sheet for everyone working in the shop. We have considered (and probably will) have a large printed out waiver above it that outlines some basic liability info. As for the specifics of that waiver - t.b.d. we would have to conform to our local 'WorkSafe BC' organisation requirements likely.
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Cassiope Sydoriak cassiope@bsbcoop.org wrote:
Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
The ThinkTank mailing List <a href=" http://lists.bikecollectives.org/options.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org">Unsubscribe from this list</a>
-- *Étienne Hossack* Programs Assistant
AMS Bike Co-op University of British Columbia 604-822-BIKE (2453) | bikecoop.ca | @ubcbike
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Hello friends on the other side of the big puddle!
Sorry to hear from you under these circumstances. Nonetheless interesting conversation for sure.
First things first: who is running the shop over there, the student or the instructors?
This seems to be the root cause of your issue, and please don't think for one second a liability waiver is going to protect you from that which is caused by something that is not a liability matter.
Are you liable for the damage to the press fit bottom bracket? Probably not.
Are you liable for a negligent instructor: more than likely. See...a very fine line.
BTW, I'm not a regular participant on the Think Tank, but I chime in when I think I might have something to support the concern with.
For some strange reason America is seen as the (Tort) liability capitol of the world. A friend in Germany was afraid to bring their product to the USA until I got involved. So wrong....we're really a very nice place to do business and a great place to buy, make or sell product.
So anyway....as you have heard elsewhere, you have to stand bye your products and services....and in this case, instructors. Pay the student his damages.
I would suggest you might be able to negotiate a lesser cost by seeing if you might not use your status and situation to obtain support to resolving the situation through donation, participation and consensus on the students part. At the least there was contributory negligence here. Turn the lemon into lemonade and move on.
In the future, know your capabilities and instructors. If someone brings in a "fancy" bike, clearly they can afford to purchase services. Let them.
If they want to learn to work on a bike, have them get a beater or provide them lower grade bikes on which to learn. Do you know any mechanics that learned to work on cars on a Ferrari? How about airplane mechanics that learned on 757's? No, I didn't think so.
CAAD 10, and he was going to LEARN to do the work in your co-op shop....me don't think this is a good idea. Think about it.
Waivers are very basic semi-legal documents. If you put it on the top of a sheet with many lines for signatures and put that on a clip board, it has about as much useful legal significance as putting a near empty box of tissue next to the toilet if you get my point.
If you insist on doing a waiver, do it properly.
Each individual must print their name, address, phone and email clearly. They must read it and sign that they have read the document and that they aknowledge and agree to the terms and waive theirs, their heirs, and so on right to seek legal or other recourse. They must be presented with a copy while you also retain a copy. This does not require two sheets. If you notice when you sign a work or purchase order in some places...the copy prints out on the back of the receipt. Easily and inexpensively done on most computer systems.
Hopes this sheds some thought on the situation. Feel free to write back.
-----Original Message----- From: Cassiope Sydoriak cassiope@bsbcoop.org To: thethinktank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 7:46 am Subject: [TheThinkTank] Liability Waiver?
Hello folks across the pond!
Recently, our friends at the London Bike Kitchen had their first conflict with a customer. He came into the workshop with a fancy Cannondale CAAD10 with a press fit BB20 bottom bracket, and he verbally agreed to their Terms & Conditions. However, the student turned out to be quite difficult - not listening to instructions, questioning instructions, consulting the internet, etc. During the BB installation process, the instructor forgot to put in the shims before the bearings were pressed in, so they had to get knocked out. Somewhere along the line, the inside of the BB shell was damaged, and there is disagreement between the instructor and the student about what happened/whose fault it is, etc.
Now the student is asking for £800 to replace his frame, which could be deadly for a small bike shop.
Following this, we’re having a lot of discussion in the UK bike community about how to approach these difficult situations. Has anyone dealt with a problem like this before? Does anyone have an effective liability waiver that covers both the customer and the shop?
Many thanks to all! -Cassiope
-- Cassiope Sydoriak Co-Founder and Executive Director Broken Spoke Bike Co-op www.bsbcoop.org m: +44 (0)7551 711746 --
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AMS Bike Co-op -
Bill Burton -
Cassiope Sydoriak -
Matthew Babski -
mfen651＠aol.com -
Shannon Southwood