Hi buds, let's talk about renaming the Think Tank in order to increase its value as a communal resource. *español abajo*
As we talked about during our Bike!Bike! meetings last autumn, the Think Tank is an incredible resource but a clunky and imperfect tool. A main challenge is participation: many collectives do not participate in the Think Tank, and it's hard to bring new collectives on board, so its reach, impact, and value are limited (and maybe even decreasing).
The name is one barrier we identified to participation: "The Think Tank" is a confusingly generic name for a listserv about bike collectives, and organizers with limited time and capacity are unlikely to engage with a resource that doesn't seem clearly relevant to their needs and objcetives. So:
- Can we rename the Think Tank without losing the backlog of listserv
messages?
- Who is in a position to actually institute such a change?
- What are the practical steps involved in doing so, and the
consequences?
- What would be a better name? "BikeCollectives" seems like perhaps the
easiest, and although it's in English I imagine it's a fairly accessible phrase. "Bike Collectives Think Tank," while fun, is pretty long, and probably less linguistically accessible for non-English-speakers.
- While we're at it, is anyone knowledgable about (or interested in
looking into) migrating the Think Tank's archive and users from its ancient listserv platform to a more up-to-date, user-friendly replacement, like groups.io or something? I imagine there could be great tools around, like maybe even automatic translation for messages.
Ok, what's your thoughts?
Josh / he/him / Brooklyn
Hola amigos, hablemos de cambiar el nombre del Think Tank para aumentar su valor como un recurso comunitario.
Como comentamos durante nuestras reuniones de Bike!Bike! el otoño pasado, el Think Tank es un recurso increíble, pero una herramienta torpe e imperfecta. Uno de los principales retos es la participación: muchos colectivos no participan en el Think Tank, y es difícil conseguir que se unan nuevos, por lo que su alcance, impacto y valor son limitados (e incluso podrían estar disminuyendo).
El nombre es una barrera que identificamos para la participación: "The Think Tank" es un nombre genérico y confuso para una lista de correo sobre colectivos de bicicletas, y es poco probable que los organizadores con tiempo y capacidad limitados interactúen con un recurso que no parece claramente relevante para sus necesidades y objetivos. Entonces:
- ¿Podemos cambiar el nombre del Think Tank sin perder la acumulación de
mensajes en la lista de correo?
- ¿Quién está en condiciones de implementar realmente dicho cambio?
- ¿Cuáles son los pasos prácticos para hacerlo y las consecuencias?
- ¿Cuál sería un nombre mejor? "BikeCollectives" parece quizás la frase
más fácil, y aunque está en inglés, imagino que es bastante accesible. "Bike Collectives Think Tank", aunque divertido, es bastante largo y probablemente menos accesible lingüísticamente para quienes no hablan inglés.
- Y ya que estamos, ¿alguien sabe (o está interesado en) migrar el
archivo y los usuarios del Think Tank de su antigua plataforma de listas de correo a una alternativa más moderna y fácil de usar, como groups.io o algo similar? Imagino que podría haber herramientas geniales, como incluso la traducción automática de mensajes.
Bueno, ¿qué opinan?
Josh / él / Brooklyn
Josh Bisker | 914-500-9890 http://voice.google.com/calls?a=nc,%2B19145009890
Hi Josh,
Change the name to - BikeCollectives - yes!
I don't think Groups.io does translations. It does have other plusses. Groups.io is free up to 100 participants. More than that, its $.48 per participant per year. two hundred participants would be $96 a year. Twenty people kicking in $5 a year would cover this.
Currently there are a bunch of free online translators.
Thanks and good health, Weogo in Canton, North Carolina
Thanks for bringing this up, and it seems worthwhile to rename;
I do not mind the word 'collective,' although Free Cycles Missoula is not technically a collective; we are a non profit community bicycle shop. We are in spirit a collective, and have many of the same operating attributes.
Thanks!
Bob Giordano, Director, Free Cycles Missoula, www.freecycles.org, 406.541.7284, Missoula Institute for Sustainable Transportation, www.strans.org
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [TheThinkTank] Renaming the Think Tank Date: 2025-03-19 2:45 pm From: Josh Bisker via TheThinkTank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org To: The Think Tank thethinktank@lists.bikecollectives.org
Hi buds, let's talk about renaming the Think Tank in order to increase its value as a communal resource. español abajo
As we talked about during our Bike!Bike! meetings last autumn, the Think Tank is an incredible resource but a clunky and imperfect tool. A main challenge is participation: many collectives do not participate in the Think Tank, and it's hard to bring new collectives on board, so its reach, impact, and value are limited (and maybe even decreasing).
The name is one barrier we identified to participation: "The Think Tank" is a confusingly generic name for a listserv about bike collectives, and organizers with limited time and capacity are unlikely to engage with a resource that doesn't seem clearly relevant to their needs and objcetives. So:
* Can we rename the Think Tank without losing the backlog of listserv
messages? * Who is in a position to actually institute such a change? * What are the practical steps involved in doing so, and the consequences? * What would be a better name? "BikeCollectives" seems like perhaps the easiest, and although it's in English I imagine it's a fairly accessible phrase. "Bike Collectives Think Tank," while fun, is pretty long, and probably less linguistically accessible for non-English-speakers. * While we're at it, is anyone knowledgable about (or interested in looking into) migrating the Think Tank's archive and users from its ancient listserv platform to a more up-to-date, user-friendly replacement, like groups.io [1] or something? I imagine there could be great tools around, like maybe even automatic translation for messages.
Ok, what's your thoughts?
Josh / he/him / Brooklyn
Hola amigos, hablemos de cambiar el nombre del Think Tank para aumentar su valor como un recurso comunitario.
Como comentamos durante nuestras reuniones de Bike!Bike! el otoño pasado, el Think Tank es un recurso increíble, pero una herramienta torpe e imperfecta. Uno de los principales retos es la participación: muchos colectivos no participan en el Think Tank, y es difícil conseguir que se unan nuevos, por lo que su alcance, impacto y valor son limitados (e incluso podrían estar disminuyendo).
El nombre es una barrera que identificamos para la participación: "The Think Tank" es un nombre genérico y confuso para una lista de correo sobre colectivos de bicicletas, y es poco probable que los organizadores con tiempo y capacidad limitados interactúen con un recurso que no parece claramente relevante para sus necesidades y objetivos. Entonces:
* ¿Podemos cambiar el nombre del Think Tank sin perder la
acumulación de mensajes en la lista de correo? * ¿Quién está en condiciones de implementar realmente dicho cambio? * ¿Cuáles son los pasos prácticos para hacerlo y las consecuencias? * ¿Cuál sería un nombre mejor? "BikeCollectives" parece quizás la frase más fácil, y aunque está en inglés, imagino que es bastante accesible. "Bike Collectives Think Tank", aunque divertido, es bastante largo y probablemente menos accesible lingüísticamente para quienes no hablan inglés. * Y ya que estamos, ¿alguien sabe (o está interesado en) migrar el archivo y los usuarios del Think Tank de su antigua plataforma de listas de correo a una alternativa más moderna y fácil de usar, como groups.io [1] o algo similar? Imagino que podría haber herramientas geniales, como incluso la traducción automática de mensajes.
Bueno, ¿qué opinan?
Josh / él / Brooklyn
Josh Bisker | 914-500-9890 [2]
[TheThinkTank] Renaming the Think Tank – Thanks for bringing this up, and it seems worthwhile to rename;
I do not mind the word 'collective,' although Free Cycles Missoula is not technically a collective; we are a non profit community bicycle shop. We are in spirit a collective, and have many of the same operating attributes.
Thanks! [...]
Yeah so many community shops aren't collectives, and some aren't even cooperatives, just nonprofits. Some are collectives, but not nonprofits. There's a lot of range.
I also don't object to changing the name from "ThinkTank" to "BikeCollectives" or "BikeCollectives ListServ". We should be clear in any case that it isn't strictly collectives represented here. I'd suggest "BikeCommunities" instead, but that could imply cycling advocacy orgs with no shop functons at all, which is too broad. This is a list for shops.
As for larger transformations such as using other protocols or software, I'm firmly against anything that isn't self-hosted and open source. Hyperkitty, which is both of the above, is what we *just* upgraded to around a year ago and it's a massive improvement over plain Mailman. As far as listserv applications go, it's excellent.
In terms of messaging in general, there's a huge amount of friction these days over email. Younger people have grown up almost exclusively with short-form, highly aesthetic, ephemeral communication products sold by corporations, and never used email growing up unless it was to talk with grandma and grandpa. This group seems to feel email is just the worst possible method of messaging.
And fundamentally, a listserv runs on email.
The sad thing is, this is exclusively a client and culture problem. Email is not an app or an interface, it's a protocol (SMTP), and you can choose any number of apps and different interfaces to use it. And the length of messages can just be set by social norms in a group. It doesn't have to be hardcoded in software.
There are *a lot* of open-source, self-hosted groupware and collaboration apps and/or platforms out there with a lot of different useful and user-friendly features. There's even a reverse-engineered Discord clone. If ultimately people decide on ditching the listserv format, I'm happy to help with alternative suggestions, tutorials, or technical assistance.
Ultimately, I'd encourage anyone who feels a great deal of friction in using listservs or email itself to simply explore other email apps. One of them is likely to have an interface that ends up feeling comfortable.
~Cyclista Nicholas
A simple search using Google for the term "bike collective" or "bike collective groups" returns the bikecollectives.org within the top couple results. The top of our homepage clearly defines what types of groups are covered by the site. And subscribing to the listserv is a single click away. So, I do wonder whether the name of the group is the source of the problem surrounding lack of growth/participation and the real problem is in line with what Nicolas brings up - that certain groups of users are less inclined to search out info sources that are outside their comfort zone of apps/interfaces.
I am doubtful that moving the listserv to a new platform will bring certain results and even if it did, how many months/years would it be before the technology again needs a refresh to keep up with a younger generation? I don't have a great solution to offer but I did want to reiterate that although I have no problem with a more all-encompassing name I don't think it will generate more use without a multi-faceted approach.
Sincerely, Sam H.
[image: Bozeman Bike Kitchen] https://bozemanbikekitchen.org/
Sam Haraldson President, Board of Directors 2104 Industrial Drive, Bozeman, MT 59715
@Josh - The real difficulty here is chasing the network effect. Marketers simply shrug and go wherever the network effect has manifested the greatest collection of users. If were were doing that, it would just be Discord probably. In any case, it would involve a proprietary, corporate product hosted on someone else's servers. Not at all DIY.
But if we choose a different format and try to stick with FOSS (free, open source) solutions to reflect our development ethics, we won't get that network effect, unless we generate it ourselves somehow. FOSS solutions just aren't where most users hang out.
Email is currently one of the best "happy mediums" (probably better characterized as vaguely tolerated mediums 9_9 ) where you can have both the network effect and an open standard with self-hosted and open source software. Almost everyone online in the world, whether by smartphone or computer, has at least one email address. That's as big as you're going to get in terms of mass adoption.
I'm totally open to branching ThinkTank operations out into another platform and/or renaming it, and willing to help if enough people want that. I just want to caution your investment in momentum for these initiatives in the case that what you're really chasing is the network effect, rather than simply an interface/UX experience.
Earlier I made a statement indicating the listserv is dedicated exclusively to shops. While this has largely been the experience I've had here, I realized it was not a true statement, and I apologize for being assertive about something that wasn't true.
From the homepage:
"Bikecollectives.org is an online resource for:
bicycle collectives
bike cooperatives
community bicycle projects
community bike shops
...and everyone else who helps people learn about bicycles and builds community around sustainable transportation."
Again, I apologize. We all share a lot of workload and adding confusion certainly isn't helpful.
~ Cyclista Nicholas
participants (5)
-
Bob Giordano -
cyclista＠inventati.org -
Josh Bisker -
Sam Haraldson -
weogo＠liveedge.net