I'm sorry if the way I'm talking about this is unclear. I'll try to explain better.

It's similar to the idea of "greenwashing" in the environmental movement. Big industrial polluters will throw token grants at progressive environmental initiatives to give themselves a nice clean image and to deflect criticism of their broader business practices, so that they can continue as usual, only more smoothly.

I'd look at "weed and seed" in the same way, though that particular program doesn't exist in Canada. In what are considered "bad" neighbourhoods, which usually means ones with lots of people who have found themselves at the wrong end of systemic racism, economic exploitation, etc., the police's main role (through things like "weeding") is to keep those folks pacified, marginalized, and out of sight. When the police then get accused of racial profiling, using "excessive" violence, or other misconduct (as they do all the time in Canada, and I can't imagine it's much different in the U.S.), they can then turn around say "No, you have it all wrong! We care about the community. Look how we're giving bikes to underprivileged kids."

In that way the bike shop is complicit in the broader process of neighbourhood social cleansing, usually called gentrification.

I hope that explanation works better. Let me know.

macho http://bike-dump.ca

Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:

"presumably this project will be part of the "seeding" side of things. one thing i would look into is what is done on the "weeding" side." "legitimizing this kind of police action"

Macho, I'd like to hear more about this, not sure what kind of police action would be legitimized by our accepting 3,500 and using it to help at-risk kids. He's a police officer who patrols presumably bad neighborhoods already and would like to give kids another option in addition to PAL or Boy's/Girl's Club centers. I am try to see all sides of the picture.

Andrew, 3,500 doesn't seem like much but consider that all the bikes are donated and many are in perfect shape to begin with. I am still concerned but I spoke with David Hoffman of Free Ride/Bike PGH the other day and he took me through how we can still manage it.

We project the approximate cost of giving one kid a bike. This would be calculated in terms of amount of shop time (electric, rent), amount of staff time (we may pay a stipend to a coordinator), and, on average, dollar amount of parts needed. Using that number we will set a maximum amount of participants in a given time frame (month/week whatever), adjusting for more volume in the summer, less in the cold months. That way we don't find ourselves in the unfortunate situation of having to scramble to raise funds, draining our savings or risking cancellation of the program.

We are meeting with him (his name is Brian too, it's wierd) tomorrow to come up with concrete plan and make everything less vague.

Sincere thanks to both you guys for weighing in,

Brian Windle UBP

On Dec 15, 2007 5:44 PM, Andrew Bushaw <plan_9@riseup.net mailto:plan_9@riseup.net> wrote:

In addition to what macho brought up, what happens when the police
money
for the program dries up and you can't afford to fund it anymore?
If you
keep it, you are doing the police a service without compensation,
and if
you end the program, people will point the finger at your shop for
pulling the program rather than the funding source. 3,500 seems like a
pretty meager amount of funding for what they want, especially since
what they want seems pretty vaguely defined.
Andrew
FM Community Bicycle Workshop
_______________________________________________
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org

-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org

---

---

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

i've not participated in the discussion thus far, but i am reading it with much interest. it's a thought i've had with regards to some of the money/resources community cycles in boulder may have access to, and has in the past. if the discussion does go off the list, please include me. I'm very interested.

thanks.

josh.

On Dec 17, 2007 11:02 AM, Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. < urbanbikeproject@gmail.com> wrote:

I am beginning to understand a little better, thank you. It calls to mind a local bike racing team which is sponsored by Valero (formerly Motiva) which has the distinction of being the past, present and probably future "biggest air polluter in DE".... the irony is fantastic here and I don't think anyone is really fooled into thinking Valero has changed its ways.

This also brings to mind a huge debate we had when we were talking about starting a community bike shop. Do we accept donations from corporations who are merely trying to look good (PR baby) and possibly cover up past or present transgressions? We never truly decided anything and honestly it's never even come up, until now I guess. I'm inclined to accept the Weed And Seed grant. Should a community turn down a PAL (Police Athletic League) center as a broader statement against policing practices?? What good would that achieve? It only equates to one less opportunity for youth to better themselves in mind and body. I'd rather see these kids in our shop in a supportive environment, learning mechanical skills, which so many of them lack, and coming away with a greater sense of mobility and pride in their own accomplishment.

We differ from many of the groups represented here in that we have no moral agenda to proselytize. We're not gonna turn people into vegans as much as we're gonna turn "average person in america" into a 20-mile round trip to work everyday bike commuter. We try to start small and create an environment that everyone can feel comfortable in (not just people who think like us or live like us). I personally admit to wearing spandex on rides of 10 or more miles, I eat meat, I usually vote Democrat (sometimes Republican), I admit to riding and racing a bike that could be (or was a few years ago) valued at over $1,000..a number that was scoffed at with disdain on a recent post. Would I be welcome in your shop to wrench alongside fixies, cuffed pants and helmet-less riders?

We try to do the right thing but we are about bikes first. Don't get me wrong, we're not accepting money from Valero as they truly are a horrible company with things to hide/cover up but when you're talking about money that is available for use to help kids in our city with nothing else I'm inclined to take it and turn it into something positive.

Macho/Andrew/Others....would you like to continue this discussion elsewhere? We could set up a forum or at least a private list so we won't be filling up inboxes across the country(ies). Or if this an interest of the list as a whole I'm all for it.

I know I'm very opinionated...If there is one thing we can agree on it's that most of us here are, thank you again, Brian

On Dec 17, 2007 11:46 AM, Macho Philipovich < macho@resist.ca> wrote:

...

I'm sorry if the way I'm talking about this is unclear. I'll try to explain better.

It's similar to the idea of "greenwashing" in the environmental movement. Big industrial polluters will throw token grants at progressive environmental initiatives to give themselves a nice clean image and to deflect criticism of their broader business practices, so that they can continue as usual, only more smoothly.

I'd look at "weed and seed" in the same way, though that particular program doesn't exist in Canada. In what are considered "bad" neighbourhoods, which usually means ones with lots of people who have found themselves at the wrong end of systemic racism, economic exploitation, etc., the police's main role (through things like "weeding") is to keep those folks pacified, marginalized, and out of sight. When the police then get accused of racial profiling, using "excessive" violence, or other misconduct (as they do all the time in Canada, and I can't imagine it's much different in the U.S.), they can then turn around say "No, you have it all wrong! We care about the community. Look how we're giving bikes to underprivileged kids."

In that way the bike shop is complicit in the broader process of neighbourhood social cleansing, usually called gentrification.

I hope that explanation works better. Let me know.

macho http://bike-dump.ca

Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:

...

"presumably this project will be part of the "seeding" side of things. one thing i would look into is what is done on the "weeding" side." "legitimizing this kind of police action"

Macho, I'd like to hear more about this, not sure what kind of police action would be legitimized by our accepting 3,500 and using it to help at-risk kids. He's a police officer who patrols presumably bad neighborhoods already and would like to give kids another option in addition to PAL or Boy's/Girl's Club centers. I am try to see all sides of the picture.

Andrew, 3,500 doesn't seem like much but consider that all the bikes are donated and many are in perfect shape to begin with. I am still concerned but I spoke with David Hoffman of Free Ride/Bike PGH the other day and he took me through how we can still manage it.

We project the approximate cost of giving one kid a bike. This would be calculated in terms of amount of shop time (electric, rent), amount of staff time (we may pay a stipend to a coordinator), and, on average, dollar amount of parts needed. Using that number we will set a maximum amount of participants in a given time frame (month/week whatever), adjusting for more volume in the summer, less in the cold months. That way we don't find ourselves in the unfortunate situation of having to scramble to raise funds, draining our savings or risking cancellation of the program.

We are meeting with him (his name is Brian too, it's wierd) tomorrow to come up with concrete plan and make everything less vague.

Sincere thanks to both you guys for weighing in,

Brian Windle UBP

On Dec 15, 2007 5:44 PM, Andrew Bushaw < plan_9@riseup.net mailto:plan_9@riseup.net> wrote:

In addition to what macho brought up, what happens when the police

...

money
for the program dries up and you can't afford to fund it anymore?
If you
keep it, you are doing the police a service without compensation,
and if
you end the program, people will point the finger at your shop for

...

pulling the program rather than the funding source. 3,500 seems

like a

...

pretty meager amount of funding for what they want, especially

since

...

what they want seems pretty vaguely defined.
Andrew
FM Community Bicycle Workshop
_______________________________________________
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>

http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

...

-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the

building)

...

Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org

---

...

---

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org

http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

...

---

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org

http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building)

Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org

---

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org

http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

hey brian. i'm open to taking the discussion off-list. alternatively, people who don't care could just not read anything that has the "weed & seed" subject line, or get their email program to filter it out for them.

there is always a debate that happens around this stuff, with some people saying "don't legitimize horrible organizations " and others saying "take the fuckers for all the money and resources they're worth." i tend to fall into the former mindset, but have respect for the latter. i mostly think the debate needs to happen so people are conscious of why they make the decisions they do.

on the other hand, when it gets to the point where the donor organization has any kind of control over the bike shop, even over how the money they gave gets used, i get wary and uncompromising really quickly. i think it ties in with the earlier discussion about hierarchy/non-hierarchy: i like to think we as grassroots groups should be able to meet our communities' needs without "necessary" evils like compromising our democratic structure or falling in with regressive forces in the community. other people may have experience that says otherwise, and of course all shops should be organized according to their particular situations. that said, as far as evils go, it's really important not to confuse "necessary" with "convenient", and it's even more important not to forget the fact that they are evils in the first place!

you'd certainly be welcome at our shop. our volunteers, like the people we serve, include university students, middle-aged suburbanites, and the odd racer, alongside homeless people and bike couriers, though the racers usually find it a lot harder to find parts they'd actually want on their bikes.

no one wants to come into a shop and be told they're an asshole because they also drive a car sometimes, or they're wearing the wrong clothes, or they have the wrong diet, or whatever. on the other hand, it's important to be careful with positive sounding ideas like having no moral/political agenda. if we try to be apolitical, we end up supporting the politics that are already dominant (like those of valero, for example). wanting to get more bikes on the road is already a political agenda, and bike shop volunteers need to have discussions around what kind of politics they want to represent. not to exclude people, even if they stubbornly refuse to cuff their pants, but to consciously promote values we might think are important like diversity, democracy, ecology, and communities free of gentrification.

take care, macho http://bike-dump.ca/

Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:

I am beginning to understand a little better, thank you. It calls to mind a local bike racing team which is sponsored by Valero (formerly Motiva) which has the distinction of being the past, present and probably future "biggest air polluter in DE".... the irony is fantastic here and I don't think anyone is really fooled into thinking Valero has changed its ways.

This also brings to mind a huge debate we had when we were talking about starting a community bike shop. Do we accept donations from corporations who are merely trying to look good (PR baby) and possibly cover up past or present transgressions? We never truly decided anything and honestly it's never even come up, until now I guess. I'm inclined to accept the Weed And Seed grant. Should a community turn down a PAL (Police Athletic League) center as a broader statement against policing practices?? What good would that achieve? It only equates to one less opportunity for youth to better themselves in mind and body. I'd rather see these kids in our shop in a supportive environment, learning mechanical skills, which so many of them lack, and coming away with a greater sense of mobility and pride in their own accomplishment.

We differ from many of the groups represented here in that we have no moral agenda to proselytize. We're not gonna turn people into vegans as much as we're gonna turn "average person in america" into a 20-mile round trip to work everyday bike commuter. We try to start small and create an environment that everyone can feel comfortable in (not just people who think like us or live like us). I personally admit to wearing spandex on rides of 10 or more miles, I eat meat, I usually vote Democrat (sometimes Republican), I admit to riding and racing a bike that could be (or was a few years ago) valued at over $1,000..a number that was scoffed at with disdain on a recent post. Would I be welcome in your shop to wrench alongside fixies, cuffed pants and helmet-less riders?

We try to do the right thing but we are about bikes first. Don't get me wrong, we're not accepting money from Valero as they truly are a horrible company with things to hide/cover up but when you're talking about money that is available for use to help kids in our city with nothing else I'm inclined to take it and turn it into something positive.

Macho/Andrew/Others....would you like to continue this discussion elsewhere? We could set up a forum or at least a private list so we won't be filling up inboxes across the country(ies). Or if this an interest of the list as a whole I'm all for it.

I know I'm very opinionated...If there is one thing we can agree on it's that most of us here are, thank you again, Brian

On Dec 17, 2007 11:46 AM, Macho Philipovich < macho@resist.ca mailto:macho@resist.ca> wrote:

I'm sorry if the way I'm talking about this is unclear.  I'll try to
explain better.

It's similar to the idea of "greenwashing" in the environmental
movement.  Big industrial polluters will throw token grants at
progressive environmental initiatives to give themselves a nice clean
image and to deflect criticism of their broader business practices, so
that they can continue as usual, only more smoothly.

I'd look at "weed and seed" in the same way, though that particular
program doesn't exist in Canada.  In what are considered "bad"
neighbourhoods, which usually means ones with lots of people who have
found themselves at the wrong end of systemic racism, economic
exploitation, etc., the police's main role (through things like
"weeding") is to keep those folks pacified, marginalized, and out of
sight.  When the police then get accused of racial profiling, using
"excessive" violence, or other misconduct (as they do all the time in
Canada, and I can't imagine it's much different in the U.S.), they can
then turn around say "No, you have it all wrong!  We care about the
community.  Look how we're giving bikes to underprivileged kids."

In that way the bike shop is complicit in the broader process of
neighbourhood social cleansing, usually called gentrification.

I hope that explanation works better.  Let me know.

macho
http://bike-dump.ca


Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:
> "presumably this project will be part of the "seeding" side of
things.
> one thing i would look into is what is done on the "weeding" side."
> "legitimizing this kind of police action"
>
> Macho, I'd like to hear more about this, not sure what kind of
police
> action would be legitimized by our accepting 3,500 and using it to
> help at-risk kids.  He's a police officer who patrols presumably
bad
> neighborhoods already and would like to give kids another option in
> addition to PAL or Boy's/Girl's Club centers.  I am try to see all
> sides of the picture.
>
> Andrew, 3,500 doesn't seem like much but consider that all the
bikes
> are donated and many are in perfect shape to begin with.  I am still
> concerned but I spoke with David Hoffman of Free Ride/Bike PGH the
> other day and he took me through how we can still manage it.
>
> We project the approximate cost of giving one kid a bike.  This
would
> be calculated in terms of amount of shop time (electric, rent),
amount
> of staff time (we may pay a stipend to a coordinator), and, on
> average, dollar amount of parts needed.  Using that number we
will set
> a maximum amount of participants in a given time frame (month/week
> whatever), adjusting for more volume in the summer, less in the
cold
> months.  That way we don't find ourselves in the unfortunate
situation
> of having to scramble to raise funds, draining our savings or
risking
> cancellation of the program.
>
> We are meeting with him (his name is Brian too, it's wierd)
tomorrow
> to come up with concrete plan and make everything less vague.
>
> Sincere thanks to both you guys for weighing in,
>
> Brian Windle
> UBP
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2007 5:44 PM, Andrew Bushaw < plan_9@riseup.net
<mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>
> <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>>> wrote:
>
>     In addition to what macho brought up, what happens when the
police
>     money
>     for the program dries up and you can't afford to fund it
anymore?
>     If you
>     keep it, you are doing the police a service without
compensation,
>     and if
>     you end the program, people will point the finger at your
shop for
>     pulling the program rather than the funding source. 3,500
seems like a
>     pretty meager amount of funding for what they want,
especially since
>     what they want seems pretty vaguely defined.
>     Andrew
>     FM Community Bicycle Workshop
>     _______________________________________________
>     Thethinktank mailing list
>     Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
>     <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>>
>    
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Urban Bike Project of Wilmington
> 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the
building)
> Wilmington, DE 19801
>
> Phone - 302-654-5304
> Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> _______________________________________________
> Thethinktank mailing list
> Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
>
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
>

_______________________________________________
Thethinktank mailing list
Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org

-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org

---

---

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

I've already shot my mouth off enough about this, so I'll listen for a while to what others have to say. There must be more shops with opinions out there. I know BICAS has a program through W&S. One of their mechanics vaguely expressed to me that he was pretty uneasy with it at this year's Bike!Bike!, but I didn't get to talk with him in any detail.

As far as critical resources, this publication, "*A Call to Reject the Federal Weed and Seed Program", might be interesting, though I haven't read it: http://www.thestrategycenter.org/publications-item8.html

Other than that and the audio segment you linked to, I didn't turn up anything much aside from passing references to criminalization of black people, including **a man in Miami** arrested for riding a bicycle without a bell, and broad sweeps of poor neigbourhoods in Chicago.

macho

Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:

Macho,

Let's keep it on-list. As Stuart said, this can lay some groundwork and help others decide about similar funding in the future.

I am in total agreement that CSB's need to be in complete control of how funding is spent and not let a donor pressure us into something that feels uncomfortable or compromises our mission/beliefs. Yes, advocating for bikes is a political statement and in that sense we do have an agenda. That said, I believe there is a limit to what we can or should do politically. For instance: would your organization publicly support something that, as a direct effect, would hamper your abilities to build bikes and promote bikes positively? Something for us all to think about, but back to the Weed & Seed....

General information about Weed & Seed: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ccdo/ws/welcome.html

"The strategy involves a two-pronged approach: law enforcement agencies and prosecutors cooperate in "weeding out" violent criminals and drug abusers and public agencies and community-based private organizations collaborate to "seed" much-needed human services, including prevention, intervention, treatment, and neighborhood restoration programs. A community-oriented policing component bridges the weeding and seeding elements."

Weed & Seed in PGH (i skimmed the page, did not listen to the full audio segment): http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/19458.php http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/19458.php

"Weed and Seed has been a controversial program since its inception. In Seattle in the early 90's a coalition of 55 community organizations banded together to fight Weed and Seed. While the program was still implemented in Seattle, the organizations were successful in forcing limitations on police street tactics."

It's very hard to organize my thoughts on this issue. The Google search "weed and seed criticism" did not turn up what I had hoped for. I wonder are there data available that link Weed & Seed to gentrification? Have the traditional human rights watchdogs latched on to Weed & Seed as particularly bad? From what I gather, the W & S dollars are there and it's up to the organizations/communities receiving them to decide how they're used. Perhaps it's better (more humanely) used in some areas than in others.

Why I feel we should accept funding:

1. We do not, at this time, have the volume of people coming in to

donate or buy parts/bikes to support this program on our own. 2. We have never run something like this before. The money allows us an opportunity to develop the program, work out the kinks and get a reference point (in terms of cost, time involved, curricula) for future programs. All paid for by the grant. 3. The grant is only one year. We can choose to decline Weed & Seed money next year if we can solely support the program or for other reasons. Yes, it would look bad if we had a great thing going and pulled the plug when money was available, but if our program is that successful I don't believe it would be hard to find another benefactor.

Some questions I have for the group: Does accepting Weed & Seed money make CBS's complicit in a form of social injustice? If we receive 3,500 do local police receive 3,500 for additional enforcement? (i'll try to find this one out today) Are there CBS's on this list that have in the past or are currently receiving Weed & Seed funds? What are your feelings (even if they don't pertain to the social justice side of things)?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

-Brian

-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org http://urbanbikeproject.org/

On Dec 17, 2007 2:18 PM, Macho Philipovich <macho@resist.ca mailto:macho@resist.ca> wrote:

hey brian.  i'm open to taking the discussion off-list.
 alternatively,
people who don't care could just not read anything that has the
"weed &
seed" subject line, or get their email program to filter it out
for them.

there is always a debate that happens around this stuff, with some
people saying "don't legitimize horrible organizations " and others
saying "take the fuckers for all the money and resources they're
worth."  i tend to fall into the former mindset, but have respect for
the latter.  i mostly think the debate needs to happen so people are
conscious of why they make the decisions they do.

on the other hand, when it gets to the point where the donor
organization has any kind of control over the bike shop, even over how
the money they gave gets used, i get wary and uncompromising really
quickly.  i think it ties in with the earlier discussion about
hierarchy/non-hierarchy: i like to think we as grassroots groups
should
be able to meet our communities' needs without "necessary" evils like
compromising our democratic structure or falling in with regressive
forces in the community.  other people may have experience that says
otherwise, and of course all shops should be organized according to
their particular situations.  that said, as far as evils go, it's
really
important not to confuse "necessary" with "convenient", and it's even
more important not to forget the fact that they are evils in the first
place!

you'd certainly be welcome at our shop.  our volunteers, like the
people
we serve, include university students, middle-aged suburbanites,
and the
odd racer, alongside homeless people and bike couriers, though the
racers usually find it a lot harder to find parts they'd actually want
on their bikes.

no one wants to come into a shop and be told they're an asshole
because
they also drive a car sometimes, or they're wearing the wrong clothes,
or they have the wrong diet, or whatever.  on the other hand, it's
important to be careful with positive sounding ideas like having no
moral/political agenda.  if we try to be apolitical, we end up
supporting the politics that are already dominant (like those of
valero,
for example). wanting to get more bikes on the road is already a
political agenda, and bike shop volunteers need to have discussions
around what kind of politics they want to represent.  not to exclude
people, even if they stubbornly refuse to cuff their pants, but to
consciously promote values we might think are important like
diversity,
democracy, ecology, and communities free of gentrification.

take care,
macho
http://bike-dump.ca/


Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:
> I am beginning to understand a little better, thank you.  It
calls to
> mind a local bike racing team which is sponsored by Valero (formerly
> Motiva) which has the distinction of being the past, present and
> probably future "biggest air polluter in DE".... the irony is
> fantastic here and I don't think anyone is really fooled into
thinking
> Valero has changed its ways.
>
> This also brings to mind a huge debate we had when we were talking
> about starting a community bike shop. Do we accept donations from
> corporations who are merely trying to look good (PR baby) and
possibly
> cover up past or present transgressions?  We never truly decided
> anything and honestly it's never even come up, until now I
guess.  I'm
> inclined to accept the Weed And Seed grant.  Should a community turn
> down a PAL (Police Athletic League) center as a broader statement
> against policing practices??  What good would that achieve?  It only
> equates to one less opportunity for youth to better themselves
in mind
> and body.  I'd rather see these kids in our shop in a supportive
> environment, learning mechanical skills, which so many of them lack,
> and coming away with a greater sense of mobility and pride in their
> own accomplishment.
>
> We differ from many of the groups represented here in that we
have no
> moral agenda to proselytize.  We're not gonna turn people into
vegans
> as much as we're gonna turn "average person in america" into a
20-mile
> round trip to work everyday bike commuter.  We try to start
small and
> create an environment that everyone can feel comfortable in (not
just
> people who think like us or live like us).  I personally admit to
> wearing spandex on rides of 10 or more miles, I eat meat, I usually
> vote Democrat (sometimes Republican), I admit to riding and racing a
> bike that could be (or was a few years ago) valued at over $1,000..a
> number that was scoffed at with disdain on a recent post.  Would
I be
> welcome in your shop to wrench alongside fixies, cuffed pants and
> helmet-less riders?
>
> We try to do the right thing but we are about bikes first. Don't get
> me wrong, we're not accepting money from Valero as they truly are a
> horrible company with things to hide/cover up but when you're
talking
> about money that is available for use to help kids in our city with
> nothing else I'm inclined to take it and turn it into something
positive.
>
> Macho/Andrew/Others....would you like to continue this discussion
> elsewhere?  We could set up a forum or at least a private list so we
> won't be filling up inboxes across the country(ies).  Or if this an
> interest of the list as a whole I'm all for it.
>
> I know I'm very opinionated...If there is one thing we can agree on
> it's that most of us here are, thank you again,
> Brian
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 11:46 AM, Macho Philipovich < macho@resist.ca
<mailto:macho@resist.ca>
> <mailto:macho@resist.ca <mailto:macho@resist.ca>>> wrote:
>
>
>     I'm sorry if the way I'm talking about this is unclear.
 I'll try to
>     explain better.
>
>     It's similar to the idea of "greenwashing" in the environmental
>     movement.  Big industrial polluters will throw token grants at
>     progressive environmental initiatives to give themselves a
nice clean
>     image and to deflect criticism of their broader business
practices, so
>     that they can continue as usual, only more smoothly.
>
>     I'd look at "weed and seed" in the same way, though that
particular
>     program doesn't exist in Canada.  In what are considered "bad"
>     neighbourhoods, which usually means ones with lots of people
who have
>     found themselves at the wrong end of systemic racism, economic
>     exploitation, etc., the police's main role (through things like
>     "weeding") is to keep those folks pacified, marginalized,
and out of
>     sight.  When the police then get accused of racial
profiling, using
>     "excessive" violence, or other misconduct (as they do all
the time in
>     Canada, and I can't imagine it's much different in the
U.S.), they can
>     then turn around say "No, you have it all wrong!  We care
about the
>     community.  Look how we're giving bikes to underprivileged
kids."
>
>     In that way the bike shop is complicit in the broader process of
>     neighbourhood social cleansing, usually called gentrification.
>
>     I hope that explanation works better.  Let me know.
>
>     macho
>     http://bike-dump.ca
>
>
>     Urban Bike Project of Wilmington, Inc. wrote:
>     > "presumably this project will be part of the "seeding"
side of
>     things.
>     > one thing i would look into is what is done on the
"weeding" side."
>     > "legitimizing this kind of police action"
>     >
>     > Macho, I'd like to hear more about this, not sure what
kind of
>     police
>     > action would be legitimized by our accepting 3,500 and
using it to
>     > help at-risk kids.  He's a police officer who patrols
presumably
>     bad
>     > neighborhoods already and would like to give kids another
option in
>     > addition to PAL or Boy's/Girl's Club centers.  I am try to
see all
>     > sides of the picture.
>     >
>     > Andrew, 3,500 doesn't seem like much but consider that all
the
>     bikes
>     > are donated and many are in perfect shape to begin with.
 I am still
>     > concerned but I spoke with David Hoffman of Free Ride/Bike
PGH the
>     > other day and he took me through how we can still manage it.
>     >
>     > We project the approximate cost of giving one kid a bike.
 This
>     would
>     > be calculated in terms of amount of shop time (electric,
rent),
>     amount
>     > of staff time (we may pay a stipend to a coordinator),
and, on
>     > average, dollar amount of parts needed.  Using that number we
>     will set
>     > a maximum amount of participants in a given time frame
(month/week
>     > whatever), adjusting for more volume in the summer, less
in the
>     cold
>     > months.  That way we don't find ourselves in the unfortunate
>     situation
>     > of having to scramble to raise funds, draining our savings or
>     risking
>     > cancellation of the program.
>     >
>     > We are meeting with him (his name is Brian too, it's wierd)
>     tomorrow
>     > to come up with concrete plan and make everything less vague.
>     >
>     > Sincere thanks to both you guys for weighing in,
>     >
>     > Brian Windle
>     > UBP
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On Dec 15, 2007 5:44 PM, Andrew Bushaw < plan_9@riseup.net
<mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>
>     <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>>
>     > <mailto: plan_9@riseup.net <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>
<mailto:plan_9@riseup.net <mailto:plan_9@riseup.net>>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     In addition to what macho brought up, what happens
when the
>     police
>     >     money
>     >     for the program dries up and you can't afford to fund it
>     anymore?
>     >     If you
>     >     keep it, you are doing the police a service without
>     compensation,
>     >     and if
>     >     you end the program, people will point the finger at your
>     shop for
>     >     pulling the program rather than the funding source. 3,500
>     seems like a
>     >     pretty meager amount of funding for what they want,
>     especially since
>     >     what they want seems pretty vaguely defined.
>     >     Andrew
>     >     FM Community Bicycle Workshop
>     >     _______________________________________________
>     >     Thethinktank mailing list
>     >     Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
>     <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>>
>     >     <mailto: Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>
>     <mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org
<mailto:Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org>>>
>     >
>    
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.org
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Urban Bike Project of Wilmington
>     > 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot
behind the
>     building)
>     > Wilmington, DE 19801
>     >
>     > Phone - 302-654-5304
>     > Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org
>     >
>    
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>
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>     >
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>    
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Urban Bike Project of Wilmington
> 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the
> building)
> Wilmington, DE 19801
>
> Phone - 302-654-5304
> Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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-- Urban Bike Project of Wilmington 1908 N. Market Street (entrance is in the parking lot behind the building) Wilmington, DE 19801

Phone - 302-654-5304 Visit online at http://urbanbikeproject.org

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