Do Not Feed The Trolls

this is getting ridiculous

On Dec 29, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Bike City bikecityrecyclery@gmail.com
wrote:

Greetings all butt-hurt dudes,

I'm a man working on a bike project in Arkansas. I know better than
all of you who don't live here how sexist the South is, in general and in bicycles specifically. I haven't seen any behavior on your part that leads me to believe that you guys are any different. You are all
part of the problem.

I read the beginning of this thread and all I saw was a person pissed off at bike talk emails on this list. I think bike talk should get
their own list and stop mining this one. They aren't a bicycle project. They just talk about how cool bicycles are. Big deal.

I have read elsewhere on this thread where men have taken posts to
this list personally. I never saw anyone mentioned by name, so why are you all so butt-hurt and defensive?

Furthermore, why shouldn't we discuss our privilege as males in life
and in bicycles? If all of the books on bicycle history are going to link bicycles with dress reform and women's liberation then why shouldn't
we discuss male privilege and female oppression, as it exists in the bicycle industry today? Why is this topic off the table for
discussion?

I don't have the economic privilege to go to BikeBike once a year to spend an hour or two discussing the real problems with our male dominated bike culture and then pat our male selves on the back for being so progressive. This list is the only forum where I can discuss this. Or, to be correct, where I can try to discuss this.

What's your hang-up? Why does any attempt to discuss sexism on this
list turn into a woman bashing free-for-all and all of the guilty men claim to be "good guys."

I'll confess that I'm writing to see if I, a dick-swinging man will
get shouted down by the other men on this list. Or even...kicked off the list. Oh no!

I remember the last purge on this list when sexism was discussed. The male moderator who I'm sure is one of the "good guys" and above all reproach, kicked off his list anyone that disagreed with the de facto ethic that a woman's place is to shut up and get fucked.

I'm sure you're one of the good guys, dude. You probably fit the archetype of the "good guy." Chaco sandals, pony-tail, Subaru with
some witty bumper stickers, white skin, pink penis, organic diet; and I
know that your heart bleeds for the less privileged. Its easy to feel pity for those "less privileged" people when you don't have to confront
your own privilege at the same time.

Truth is, I don't give a fuck if the only moderator is a male and he quashes any discussion of sexism on this list. I don't care if he
kicks us off the list. Fuck him. I don't care because I know that all you
guys are doing is making it clear to women and their allies that you are
not people we can trust or work with.

If you're ever in Arkansas look me up, Moderator. I'll be the rabble-rouser with the wrench in his hand. If you feel tough enough,
we can tussle.

Yee-haw,

Joshua

On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 21:31 -0800, John Boyer wrote:

...

rabble-rouser n. a person who tries to stir up groups of people with speeches tending to arouse them to acts of violence against some existing condition, usually to serve his/her own ends. - World book Dictionary

SBK (Sacramento Bike Kitchen) went through a period where a few rabble rousers had their way and it ended up in disintegrating the org. One must shine the light of day on this person quickly and deep six them from the org. Its the only way you can restore order, production and prosperity to your community bike shop.

John Boyer. Sacramento _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

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i would like to stack on here. to say that the people on bike talk are helping the bicycle community communicate and giving voice to the air what we do as bicycle advocates Bike Talk is our outreach tool, call in and join.

i do not belive This Joshua to be anyone other than the Andrea who has started this unnessary time wasting and unproductive blaming exercise!

i would like to propose that both Andrea and Joshua apologize for insulting and making general attacks on the rest of this community. Also it would be good to hear from any other persons who have been to the Recyclery. Just to verify that it exists. There web site is lacking the pictures of people and other details that make me comfortable excepting that they actually do anything!

jim

From: Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org To: info@bikecityrecyclery.org; The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 3:50:16 PM Subject: [TheThinkTank] Purpose of this list?

Joshua, your e-mail had a lot of points, including that you'd like to beat people up who don't agree with you, that you think calling people names is the best way to persuade people to your point of view. I'm actually of your point of view regarding most of this (baffled as I am by what you seem to consider successfully interacting with your peers), so forgive me (if that's part of making things better in anyone's universe at this point) for replying to just one of your points.

Why is it bad for those to ask people to contribute to their radio show? Did they say that women can't contribute or something, or do they say that and then turn them away or something? I think their show would be improved by any of us contributing, but even if you disagree, how are they "mining" the list? Mining implies that you take something away, a non-renewable resource. But being asked to contribute takes nothing from me, and I am puzzled that you think it takes something from you, Joshua. I like the idea of bike coops taking advantage of any and all media in order to promote bicycling. The list is here for people to share resources, isn't it? Perhaps it has another mission I'm not aware of. It's all about collaboration from my point of view. I know this has worked for NBW and Bike Church in Philly. I know I said I'd only address one point, but I can't resist it... I think guys with pony tails are hot, but I probably think your haircut is OK too.

Andy

Bike City wrote:

Greetings all butt-hurt dudes,

I'm a man working on a bike project in Arkansas. I know better than all of you who don't live here how sexist the South is, in general and in bicycles specifically. I haven't seen any behavior on your part that leads me to believe that you guys are any different. You are all part of the problem. I read the beginning of this thread and all I saw was a person pissed off at bike talk emails on this list. I think bike talk should get their own list and stop mining this one. They aren't a bicycle project. They just talk about how cool bicycles are. Big deal. I have read elsewhere on this thread where men have taken posts to this list personally. I never saw anyone mentioned by name, so why are you all so butt-hurt and defensive? Furthermore, why shouldn't we discuss our privilege as males in life and in bicycles? If all of the books on bicycle history are going to link bicycles with dress reform and women's liberation then why shouldn't we discuss male privilege and female oppression, as it exists in the bicycle industry today? Why is this topic off the table for discussion? I don't have the economic privilege to go to BikeBike once a year to spend an hour or two discussing the real problems with our male dominated bike culture and then pat our male selves on the back for being so progressive. This list is the only forum where I can discuss this. Or, to be correct, where I can try to discuss this.

What's your hang-up? Why does any attempt to discuss sexism on this list turn into a woman bashing free-for-all and all of the guilty men claim to be "good guys."
I'll confess that I'm writing to see if I, a dick-swinging man will get shouted down by the other men on this list. Or even...kicked off the list. Oh no! I remember the last purge on this list when sexism was discussed. The male moderator who I'm sure is one of the "good guys" and above all reproach, kicked off his list anyone that disagreed with the de facto ethic that a woman's place is to shut up and get fucked. I'm sure you're one of the good guys, dude. You probably fit the archetype of the "good guy." Chaco sandals, pony-tail, Subaru with some witty bumper stickers, white skin, pink penis, organic diet; and I know that your heart bleeds for the less privileged. Its easy to feel pity for those "less privileged" people when you don't have to confront your own privilege at the same time. Truth is, I don't give a fuck if the only moderator is a male and he quashes any discussion of sexism on this list. I don't care if he kicks us off the list. Fuck him. I don't care because I know that all you guys are doing is making it clear to women and their allies that you are not people we can trust or work with. If you're ever in Arkansas look me up, Moderator. I'll be the rabble-rouser with the wrench in his hand. If you feel tough enough, we can tussle. Yee-haw,

Joshua

-- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling

Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org

Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104

Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell: (215) 873-6695 FAX: (215) 386-7288

Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...

I have been keeping quiet here out of respect for the moderator of this last, but I do think apologies are in order. Andrea has been particularly disruptive and disrespectful, and Joshua has also been disrespectful, including making baseless, unfounded accusations regarding the moderator of the list, as well as calling out the moderator to come by for a "tussle" if he is in the area (why he thinks the moderator would want to fight him is beyond me) and other baseless accusations (people being shouted down, a purge against anyone that took a side against sexism, and the "woman bashing free-for-all" whenever sexism on this list is discussed). Further, they have been counter-productive against the bike movement in general, as well as the agenda the are trying to push. Besides the fact that his post was, in general, ridiculous drivel. Regarding Joshua's accusations of efforts to quash dissent, you seem to indicate that there has been little discussion of the topic when raised (I do actually remember some input to the topic of the women/trans night only). This list was put together to share ideas and experiences, not so a select few could push their agenda and views on everyone else, and be disruptive when things do not work out as they wish. Erik's post was a good example of how a conducive discussion could have gone down. Sorry, I held out as long as I could. Joshua and Andrea do owe this list an apology for their disruptive behavior.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:51 PM, John Gatlin johngatlin@gmail.com wrote:

James, and everyone else on this list,

Please rest assured that both Joshua and Andrea are two distinct, separate, and otherwise generally upstanding people who are both involved with a real, tangible, and very successful bike project called Bike City. Bike City is located in Fayetteville, Arkansas very near the University of Arkansas Campus. I encourage anyone passing through Arkansas to swing by and check out the project; it is the oldest, most integrated with their community, and best established project in Arkansas and, though I have only been there in passing a few times, is in my opinion a great shop. I know this because I was involved with the bike project scene in central Arkansas (Little Rock, Conway, and Perryville, to be specific) for nearly 4 years. Maybe they can update their website with more pictures to feed your interest, but I do not think that should be necessary, and should certainly not be expected as a reaction to your email.

Although this entire exchange has been ridiculous, I agree with Joshua that very little significant discussion has occurred on this list regarding women's and, for that matter, a number of other issues. It seems deep discussion is saved for programs like Bike Talk, and for the various BikeBike conferences, for reasons perhaps related to saving inbox space. I'm not sure about the rest of you but I save my precious riseup account for more select correspondence and am far from using up the space allotted on various corporate email services. And I save every single one of these ThinkTank emails. Maybe I'm just not that popular. Pardon the digression.

Anyway, save a few examples, the majority of activity I have witnessed on this list is people sharing resources that their various projects have developed, like teaching manuals, or web development tricks, or exploded bike part diagrams. I love receiving this stuff, don't get me wrong, but when Andrea sent out an email months back, February 19th to be exact, requesting feedback on hard-to-ask questions regarding women's/trans night logistics, there was little public response up here. Granted, a year prior to that (late March 2008) there was a similar discussion, and more recently there was the No Boys Allowed discussion, but most of these just seem to fizzle out.

I can't compare the discussions up here to what happens at BikeBike because I have never made it (though I'm planning to attend one of the regional ones here soon), but I can't help but yearn for something more than an exchange of diagrams and sporadic participation in spreadsheets here. Please don't take offense to that. I'm pissed at the reactionary nature of this recent discussion and I really hope that none of the involved parties leave this list because I have received and very much appreciated various other inputs from them on here in the past. I don't think we need to end the discussion, either. And I especially do not think that apologies are in line. I think we need to finish this discussion, and when I can process my opinions, as a white 20-something male, on considering women (and transpeople) in every aspect of what I do at every point in time, I will contribute them. In the mean time I hope all of you will continue to provide your input.

Thank you for being who you are. I know we're not perfect, and I know we're fighting a losing battle. But goddamn it, please don't alienate yourselves. That's just what they want us to do. We have to WORK TOGETHER. We have to LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES. We must ESTABLISH INSTITUTIONS with LASTING PRESENCES in which we can do these things.

Keep fighting the good fight, Drew 512-573-0408

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:03 PM, james blesdoe jamesbleds0e@yahoo.com wrote:

...

i would like to stack on here. to say that the people on bike talk are helping the bicycle community communicate and giving voice to the air what we do as bicycle advocates Bike Talk is our outreach tool,  call in and join.

i do not belive This Joshua to be anyone other than the Andrea who has started this unnessary time wasting and unproductive blaming exercise!

i would like to propose that both Andrea and Joshua apologize for insulting and making general attacks on  the rest of this community.   Also it would be good to hear from any other persons who have been to the Recyclery.  Just to verify that it exists.  There web site is lacking the pictures of people and other details that make me comfortable excepting that they actually do anything!

jim

---

From: Andy Dyson andy@neighborhoodbikeworks.org To: info@bikecityrecyclery.org; The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 3:50:16 PM Subject: [TheThinkTank] Purpose of this list?

Joshua, your e-mail had a lot of points, including that you'd like to beat people up who don't agree with you, that you think calling people names is the best way to persuade people to your point of view.  I'm actually of your point of view regarding most of this (baffled as I am by what you seem to consider successfully interacting with your peers), so forgive me (if that's part of making things better in anyone's universe at this point) for replying to just one of your points.

Why is it bad for those to ask people to contribute to their radio show? Did they say that women can't contribute or something, or do they say that and then turn them away or something?  I think their show would be improved by any of us contributing, but even if you disagree, how are they "mining" the list?  Mining implies that you take something away, a non-renewable resource.  But being asked to contribute takes nothing from me, and I am puzzled that you think it takes something from you, Joshua.  I like the idea of bike coops taking advantage of any and all media in order to promote bicycling. The list is here for people to share resources, isn't it? Perhaps it has another mission I'm not aware of.  It's all about collaboration from my point of view.  I know this has worked for NBW and Bike Church in Philly. I know I said I'd only address one point, but I can't resist it...  I think guys with pony tails are hot, but I probably think your haircut is OK too.

Andy

Bike City wrote:

...

Greetings all butt-hurt dudes,

I'm a man working on a bike project in Arkansas. I know better than all of you who don't live here how sexist the South is, in general and in bicycles specifically. I haven't seen any behavior on your part that leads me to believe that you guys are any different. You are all part of the problem. I read the beginning of this thread and all I saw was a person pissed off at bike talk emails on this list. I think bike talk should get their own list and stop mining this one. They aren't a bicycle project. They just talk about how cool bicycles are. Big deal. I have read elsewhere on this thread where men have taken posts to this list personally. I never saw anyone mentioned by name, so why are you all so butt-hurt and defensive? Furthermore, why shouldn't we discuss our privilege as males in life and in bicycles? If all of the books on bicycle history are going to link bicycles with dress reform and women's liberation then why shouldn't we discuss male privilege and female oppression, as it exists in the bicycle industry today? Why is this topic off the table for discussion?   I don't have the economic privilege to go to BikeBike once a year to spend an hour or two discussing the real problems with our male dominated bike culture and then pat our male selves on the back for being so progressive. This list is the only forum where I can discuss this. Or, to be correct, where I can try to discuss this.

What's your hang-up? Why does any attempt to discuss sexism on this list turn into a woman bashing free-for-all and all of the guilty men claim to be "good guys." I'll confess that I'm writing to see if I, a dick-swinging man will get shouted down by the other men on this list. Or even...kicked off the list. Oh no! I remember the last purge on this list when sexism was discussed. The male moderator who I'm sure is one of the "good guys" and above all reproach, kicked off his list anyone that disagreed with the de facto ethic that a woman's place is to shut up and get fucked. I'm sure you're one of the good guys, dude. You probably fit the archetype of the "good guy." Chaco sandals, pony-tail, Subaru with some witty bumper stickers, white skin, pink penis, organic diet; and I know that your heart bleeds for the less privileged. Its easy to feel pity for those "less privileged" people when you don't have to confront your own privilege at the same time. Truth is, I don't give a fuck if the only moderator is a male and he quashes any discussion of sexism on this list. I don't care if he kicks us off the list. Fuck him. I don't care because I know that all you guys are doing is making it clear to women and their allies that you are not people we can trust or work with. If you're ever in Arkansas look me up, Moderator. I'll be the rabble-rouser with the wrench in his hand. If you feel tough enough, we can tussle. Yee-haw,

Joshua

-- Andrew C. Dyson Executive Director Neighborhood Bike Works Increasing opportunities for youth through bicycling

Check our Web Site: http://www.neighborhoodbikeworks.org

Neighborhood Bike Works 3916 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104

Office: (215) 386-0316 Cell:    (215) 873-6695 FAX:    (215) 386-7288

---

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