Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread.
I think that this is very much a multi-faceted issue. So I will only present some of them.
There can be an open-mindedness in adult men about tools that isn't always present in adult women. For instance, give a man a new tool and he (perhaps from tinkering with daddy as a child) will think that he knows what to do with it. In my experience this can result in broken tools, hurt bike parts, or hurt body parts. Give that same new tool to a woman. She may be intimidated by it, not knowing what it does or how it can hurt her. Having seen other people pick it up and seemingly having an innate knowledge about it (and maybe hurting something) makes the process of familiarization that much more challenging and time-consuming. She isn't likely to come back if she was scared or even uncomfortable.
Perhaps because of this reputation for unfamiliarity, work done can be second-guessed. Personally, there is no response that I've found to resolve this issue. You'd be arguing with an ideologue. An extension of that is having female instruction second-guessed. That cannot be tolerated. It doesn't allow for the learner to learn.
The final case of undermining that I've been exposed to (and, thankfully, not around bikes!) is men who refuse to tell me the information that I need to get a task done. A bike-related example, thankfully hypothetical: A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx shop has a bad mechanic just the same.
Our society has changed very dramatically in the past fifty years. It amazes me that attitudes have changed as much as they have. That's mere generations of parents passing down old societal predjudices. Of course we have more to do, hence these discussions. So I hope I have helped you with what you're looking for.
Ride safe
Chloé
------Original Message------
From: Angel York
Sender: thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org
To: The Think Tank
ReplyTo: The Think Tank
Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread.
Sent: 29 Oct 2009 03:48
It seems to me that this discussion is sufficiently on-topic (that is, relates to community bike shops) to keep as a part of this listserv. I, for one, appreciate this conversation. Angel On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Mark Rehder mark@drumbent.com wrote: What would be interesting is to find some cycling stats based on gender - how many women ride bikes compared to men? How many do so for commuting or casual riding, and also as a competitive sport (pro or amateur)? Here in Ottawa I would give a very rough estimate of a 3-1 ratio on the street. But that does not seem to translate into the industry. Of the shops around here, the ones that have women even just doing sales tend to the larger "sports" stores, and there's only one shop I'm aware of that actually had a woman wrench (McCrank's in the Glebe, where I used to work part-time). And it's a bike-only shop. Is it the old thing of women still not being socialized to do mechanical things? As I was growing up I thought feminism would finally help push all this gender-related crap aside, but we all know it has not. But how deep is the mind-set? I need to read up on my gender studies to see if little girls really do prefer dolls and little boys prefer trucks. What has been heartening is how many younger women are showing an interest in fixing their own bikes. We don't get too many women over 35 coming in, but lots in the 18-35 group. We've had a few with some experience say they'd like to be come a Head Mechanic, but unfortunately none have so far followed through. One of our current Shop Assistants did say last summer that she plans to become our first female HM, but then her new job seems to have kept her away from the shop, so we're no closer to even that modest goal. Women have told us they appreciate seeing other women in the shop, especially as staff, answering questions and selling bikes. While we are gender lopsided in terms of mechanics, we're at least doing better in terms of committed volunteer staff. But it is certainly not representati Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's earing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge e. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter hat I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the rong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll ven tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to ome in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will lame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative tereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me p to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman haring my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my hest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx hop has a bad mechanic just the same.
If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly as a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not call them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique. ( all of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy mechanic. I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave them. I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I do to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment, and toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots of bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I never hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive ones either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.
Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.
Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege? There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class, gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?
Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do enough regularly to address the things I could. *This is ABSOLUTELY NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!"* Just trying to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who just don't want cake.
Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
Anyone that has worked in any sort of shop knows that it's unacceptable behaviour on the customers part to simply say there is a problem, 'fix it'. You don't do this with your car. You explain the symptoms to the best of your abilities. Women shouldn't have to work harder than their male counterparts to trouble shoot a problem with the expectation that some guy might be testing her. I just don't think 'work harder' is a good solution.
Because we are dudes, we have the privilege of knowing that people who second guess our work are 'dicks'. Women don't have this privilege. Maybe it's because the customer is a 'dick' but sometimes it is sexism. I'm a dude so I can't understand what it feels like to always wonder if my gender plays a role in the way I'm being treated. It is probably pretty fatiguing.
noah On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx shop has a bad mechanic just the same.
If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly as a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not call them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique. ( all of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy mechanic. I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave them. I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I do to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment, and toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots of bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I never hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive ones either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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I think the role of sexism in our culture in general, and within bike repair specifically is very tricky. It is much less tangible--laws have been changed, policies alter, spaces become ostensibly more "open." So with all these institutional barriers removed, why aren't there more women in the shop, and why do I as a woman still feel a little icky sometimes and that things still aren't quite right? I believe it is because to make a traditionally male-dominated space or field more gender-inclusive requires more than just removing barriers; it also require changing the culture. This means that to really fight sexism at its root we can't just open the doors to all, we also have to change how things run, what gets said, the everyday little stuff that is not overtly discriminatory but might still contribute to making a space male-dominated (and by the way the same would go for a female-dominated space, though this gets talked about much less and is a discussion for a different listserv). The gender-inclusive shop can't just be the old shop plus women; it requires changing the way things get done, and letting those new to the space make it theirs too.
Just read Josh's cake analogy, and I like it. A few questions: Why don't you like cake? Did you have a previous bad experience with cake? Is cake considered tacky or trashy in the circles you grew up in? Maybe you've never had cake before and you're afraid you'll make a cake faux-pas? Do you prefer cupcakes, or pie? Do you have an ethical issue with this cake? My point is, there is a whole set of cultural and personal questions behind cake preference, or to drop the analogy, affinity for riding and fixing bikes. Obviously, we cannot change the world tomorrow nor is is practical to address each and every person's idiosyncracies. But, we can ask ourselves what about the specific space, or the general politics and culture of bikes more broadly, makes it more appealing to some demographics than others?
My point is that if we really and truly want to be more inclusive, it is going to require being open to change. Listen well to those new to your organization, particularly if they do come from a different site of privilege. Think about different learning styles, languages and speech patterns, body language, body types, etc. and notice what types the shop space favors (because inevitably something is being favored). If you are a person with privilege, realize that making the space more comfortable for others will probably mean making it a tiny bit more uncomfortable for you, from the outset. But the great opportunity here is that everyone will learn. It is not about accommodation, but something more radical, and isn't that sorta what this is about--not just bikes, but also a protest to the dictatorial nature of a consumerist-driven society? This might look like a leap, but it's all related to me.
I could get more specific, but this is way long and if you are still reading, thanks for listening and email me if you want to talk more.
Sarah Davis Bike Collective
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:56 AM, winter.snowy.rose@gmail.com wrote:
I think that this is very much a multi-faceted issue. So I will only present some of them.
There can be an open-mindedness in adult men about tools that isn't always present in adult women. For instance, give a man a new tool and he (perhaps from tinkering with daddy as a child) will think that he knows what to do with it. In my experience this can result in broken tools, hurt bike parts, or hurt body parts. Give that same new tool to a woman. She may be intimidated by it, not knowing what it does or how it can hurt her. Having seen other people pick it up and seemingly having an innate knowledge about it (and maybe hurting something) makes the process of familiarization that much more challenging and time-consuming. She isn't likely to come back if she was scared or even uncomfortable.
Perhaps because of this reputation for unfamiliarity, work done can be second-guessed. Personally, there is no response that I've found to resolve this issue. You'd be arguing with an ideologue. An extension of that is having female instruction second-guessed. That cannot be tolerated. It doesn't allow for the learner to learn.
The final case of undermining that I've been exposed to (and, thankfully, not around bikes!) is men who refuse to tell me the information that I need to get a task done. A bike-related example, thankfully hypothetical: A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx shop has a bad mechanic just the same.
Our society has changed very dramatically in the past fifty years. It amazes me that attitudes have changed as much as they have. That's mere generations of parents passing down old societal predjudices. Of course we have more to do, hence these discussions. So I hope I have helped you with what you're looking for.
Ride safe Chloé ------Original Message------ From: Angel York Sender: thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org To: The Think Tank ReplyTo: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. Sent: 29 Oct 2009 03:48
It seems to me that this discussion is sufficiently on-topic (that is, relates to community bike shops) to keep as a part of this listserv. I, for one, appreciate this conversation. Angel On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Mark Rehder mark@drumbent.com wrote: What would be interesting is to find some cycling stats based on gender - how many women ride bikes compared to men? How many do so for commuting or casual riding, and also as a competitive sport (pro or amateur)? Here in Ottawa I would give a very rough estimate of a 3-1 ratio on the street. But that does not seem to translate into the industry. Of the shops around here, the ones that have women even just doing sales tend to the larger "sports" stores, and there's only one shop I'm aware of that actually had a woman wrench (McCrank's in the Glebe, where I used to work part-time). And it's a bike-only shop. Is it the old thing of women still not being socialized to do mechanical things? As I was growing up I thought feminism would finally help push all this gender-related crap aside, but we all know it has not. But how deep is the mind-set? I need to read up on my gender studies to see if little girls really do prefer dolls and little boys prefer trucks. What has been heartening is how many younger women are showing an interest in fixing their own bikes. We don't get too many women over 35 coming in, but lots in the 18-35 group. We've had a few with some experience say they'd like to be come a Head Mechanic, but unfortunately none have so far followed through. One of our current Shop Assistants did say last summer that she plans to become our first female HM, but then her new job seems to have kept her away from the shop, so we're no closer to even that modest goal. Women have told us they appreciate seeing other women in the shop, especially as staff, answering questions and selling bikes. While we are gender lopsided in terms of mechanics, we're at least doing better in terms of committed volunteer staff. But it is certainly not representati Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network _______________________________________________ Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.
On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue -- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.
This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly as a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not call them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique. ( all of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy mechanic. I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave them. I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I do to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment, and toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots of bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I never hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive ones either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can offer cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that only your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in the window it's all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering about cake.
also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake party.
it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that they are intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while maybe the majority of them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only one and the indifference of others to reinforce this.)
I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it; the only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are interested in bikes and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there to get a bike to ride around town in they've already signed up for it.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.
Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.
Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege? There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class, gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?
Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do enough regularly to address the things I could. *This is ABSOLUTELY NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!"* Just trying to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who just don't want cake.
Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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last week I was at Costco buying a case of biscuits and I saw this lady is an air force flight suit. I couldn't help but ask, "when did the start letting women fly?" now I'm noticing women doing all sorts of stuff. I even saw a woman driving a public transit bus. this to me seems dangerous. they won't breast feed and and now we have children without immunity all over with swine flu and I can't even go to walmart for fear of all this sickness. now they want to be in charge of all kinds of things and governement and the economy and recycling and even driving the garbage truck. where does it end? how am I to embrace my freedom? this girl came to our ride once and all she could talk about was how men have affairs nothing more than high school education. this bothers me. then some wild yap about jail and court and lawyers and such: Who do you think I am -- some kind of moneybag? Here I am trying to sell my short story trilogy, and you people hound me at every turn -- howling and moaning about some sexist bike shops. What kind of rotten business are you in -- that you have to hound people all over the country?
Everybody knows that the bicycle is nothing more that a money laundering scheme, a shady, underground, organization that pollutes the very nature of what we are about: "rebelling against the man" Cycling is a lifestyle choice.
What the hell are you tyring to do, anyway? Don't you realize that I can't work with all the war coming on us? This atomic fallout is God's WRATH! With the end of the world right on top of us, I can't afford to work, let alone ride a bicycle or race cyclocross. Haven't you ever heard of serving God and Mammon? With all this sex going on and people forgetting about God, how can you hound me like this? We're taking whiskey into our bodies all the time and drink God's BLOOD! I can't hold a job -- I get worried all the time and feel half crazy ... what are you doing with all this money? I don't want your damn money . . . we all have a home in Heaven . . .what's all the trouble?
You don't understand the strain I'm under: I'm not the same man I was a year ago. Worrying about my work and money and fitness and jobs all at the same time is driving me crazy! I have to get my work published! Why don't you talk to some of these publishers I know and get me an advance so I can write a novel? Then I'll have money and I will be able to race every weekend. Then I'll have money . . .then I'll have it . . . I won't get these threats! I got a disease of some kind over in New Orleans and this doctor says I'll be fine, but I worry. Everybody thinks it's funny, but I have to get a job. I might be the assistant religion editor at the Gainsville Sun pretty soon. . . ''I'm going over there next week to see about a job. I had a car and somebody took it in St. Louis. Oh, God, whats happening all the time? Everybody wants to steal and drink and sex and take every body's money away from people who don't even sell anything and there's crazy atomic fallout everywhere and war coming on. The whole world is going crazy and I don't even have a job. You've got to stop threatening me! I'm not well -- I have a blister on my leg and that damn disease is all over my stomach. I can't even think what I want to say anymore . . . this worry is driving me crazy.
I tired to work in New Orleans and they made me quit. If I get this thing in Gainesville I'll be a religion editor and publish my own book in the paper. After that I'll have a job.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Boson Au instructions@gmail.com wrote:
Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can offer cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that only your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in the window it's all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering about cake.
also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake party.
it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that they are intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while maybe the majority of them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only one and the indifference of others to reinforce this.)
I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it; the only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are interested in bikes and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there to get a bike to ride around town in they've already signed up for it.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.
Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.
Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege? There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class, gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?
Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do enough regularly to address the things I could. *This is ABSOLUTELY NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!"* Just trying to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who just don't want cake.
Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
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Motion to remove this guy and his highly disturbing and unproductive
rant from the listserve. Do we have a moderator?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 29, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com
wrote:
last week I was at Costco buying a case of biscuits and I saw this
lady is an air force flight suit. I couldn't help but ask, "when did
the start letting women fly?" now I'm noticing women doing all
sorts of stuff. I even saw a woman driving a public transit bus.
this to me seems dangerous. they won't breast feed and and now we
have children without immunity all over with swine flu and I can't
even go to walmart for fear of all this sickness. now they want to
be in charge of all kinds of things and governement and the economy
and recycling and even driving the garbage truck. where does it end?
how am I to embrace my freedom? this girl came to our ride once and
all she could talk about was how men have affairs nothing more than
high school education. this bothers me. then some wild yap about
jail and court and lawyers and such: Who do you think I am -- some
kind of moneybag? Here I am trying to sell my short story trilogy,
and you people hound me at every turn -- howling and moaning about
some sexist bike shops. What kind of rotten business are you in --
that you have to hound people all over the country?Everybody knows that the bicycle is nothing more that a money
laundering scheme, a shady, underground, organization that pollutes
the very nature of what we are about: "rebelling against the man"
Cycling is a lifestyle choice.What the hell are you tyring to do, anyway? Don't you realize that
I can't work with all the war coming on us? This atomic fallout is
God's WRATH! With the end of the world right on top of us, I can't
afford to work, let alone ride a bicycle or race cyclocross.
Haven't you ever heard of serving God and Mammon? With all this sex
going on and people forgetting about God, how can you hound me like
this? We're taking whiskey into our bodies all the time and drink
God's BLOOD! I can't hold a job -- I get worried all the time and
feel half crazy ... what are you doing with all this money? I don't
want your damn money . . . we all have a home in Heaven . . .what's
all the trouble?You don't understand the strain I'm under: I'm not the same man I
was a year ago. Worrying about my work and money and fitness and
jobs all at the same time is driving me crazy! I have to get my
work published! Why don't you talk to some of these publishers I
know and get me an advance so I can write a novel? Then I'll have
money and I will be able to race every weekend. Then I'll have
money . . .then I'll have it . . . I won't get these threats! I
got a disease of some kind over in New Orleans and this doctor says
I'll be fine, but I worry. Everybody thinks it's funny, but I have
to get a job. I might be the assistant religion editor at the
Gainsville Sun pretty soon. . . ''I'm going over there next week to
see about a job. I had a car and somebody took it in St. Louis.
Oh, God, whats happening all the time? Everybody wants to steal and
drink and sex and take every body's money away from people who don't
even sell anything and there's crazy atomic fallout everywhere and
war coming on. The whole world is going crazy and I don't even
have a job. You've got to stop threatening me! I'm not well -- I
have a blister on my leg and that damn disease is all over my
stomach. I can't even think what I want to say anymore . . . this
worry is driving me crazy.I tired to work in New Orleans and they made me quit. If I get this
thing in Gainesville I'll be a religion editor and publish my own
book in the paper. After that I'll have a job.On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Boson Au instructions@gmail.com
wrote:Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can offer
cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that
only your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in
the window it's all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering
about cake.also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake
party.it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are
sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that
they are intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while
maybe the majority of them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only
one and the indifference of others to reinforce this.)I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to
level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it;
the only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are
interested in bikes and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there
to get a bike to ride around town in they've already signed up for it.On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote: Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general
discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is
important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and
distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of
cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and
distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I
get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the
cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me
not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake
and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do
with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege?
There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class,
gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community
bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe
space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to
accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting
to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white
male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do
enough regularly to address the things I could. This is ABSOLUTELY
NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!" Just trying
to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what
I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests
towards people who just don't want cake.Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you
reading this.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit: http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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Adam, Unfortunately, if I remove him it would just just further demonstrate intolerance to others ideas and opinions. Perhaps you should email him directly with your concerns or questions.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Adam Schwartz rideyourbicycle@gmail.com wrote:
Motion to remove this guy and his highly disturbing and unproductive rant from the listserve. Do we have a moderator?
Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
last week I was at Costco buying a case of biscuits and I saw this lady is an air force flight suit. I couldn't help but ask, "when did the start letting women fly?" now I'm noticing women doing all sorts of stuff. I even saw a woman driving a public transit bus. this to me seems dangerous. they won't breast feed and and now we have children without immunity all over with swine flu and I can't even go to walmart for fear of all this sickness. now they want to be in charge of all kinds of things and governement and the economy and recycling and even driving the garbage truck. where does it end? how am I to embrace my freedom? this girl came to our ride once and all she could talk about was how men have affairs nothing more than high school education. this bothers me. then some wild yap about jail and court and lawyers and such: Who do you think I am -- some kind of moneybag? Here I am trying to sell my short story trilogy, and you people hound me at every turn -- howling and moaning about some sexist bike shops. What kind of rotten business are you in -- that you have to hound people all over the country?
Everybody knows that the bicycle is nothing more that a money laundering scheme, a shady, underground, organization that pollutes the very nature of what we are about: "rebelling against the man" Cycling is a lifestyle choice.
What the hell are you tyring to do, anyway? Don't you realize that I can't work with all the war coming on us? This atomic fallout is God's WRATH! With the end of the world right on top of us, I can't afford to work, let alone ride a bicycle or race cyclocross. Haven't you ever heard of serving God and Mammon? With all this sex going on and people forgetting about God, how can you hound me like this? We're taking whiskey into our bodies all the time and drink God's BLOOD! I can't hold a job -- I get worried all the time and feel half crazy ... what are you doing with all this money? I don't want your damn money . . . we all have a home in Heaven . . .what's all the trouble?
You don't understand the strain I'm under: I'm not the same man I was a year ago. Worrying about my work and money and fitness and jobs all at the same time is driving me crazy! I have to get my work published! Why don't you talk to some of these publishers I know and get me an advance so I can write a novel? Then I'll have money and I will be able to race every weekend. Then I'll have money . . .then I'll have it . . . I won't get these threats! I got a disease of some kind over in New Orleans and this doctor says I'll be fine, but I worry. Everybody thinks it's funny, but I have to get a job. I might be the assistant religion editor at the Gainsville Sun pretty soon. . . ''I'm going over there next week to see about a job. I had a car and somebody took it in St. Louis. Oh, God, whats happening all the time? Everybody wants to steal and drink and sex and take every body's money away from people who don't even sell anything and there's crazy atomic fallout everywhere and war coming on. The whole world is going crazy and I don't even have a job. You've got to stop threatening me! I'm not well -- I have a blister on my leg and that damn disease is all over my stomach. I can't even think what I want to say anymore . . . this worry is driving me crazy.
I tired to work in New Orleans and they made me quit. If I get this thing in Gainesville I'll be a religion editor and publish my own book in the paper. After that I'll have a job.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Boson Au instructions@gmail.com wrote:
Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can offer cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that only your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in the window it's all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering about cake.
also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake party.
it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that they are intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while maybe the majority of them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only one and the indifference of others to reinforce this.)
I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it; the only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are interested in bikes and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there to get a bike to ride around town in they've already signed up for it.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.
Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.
Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege? There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class, gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?
Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do enough regularly to address the things I could. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!" Just trying to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who just don't want cake.
Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
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What about flagging him so that if this happens say, four times, then he gets cut? From the sounds of it he is quite stressed indeed...
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
-----Original Message----- From: Ted Striker chupacabras@gmail.com Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:09:49 To: The Think Tankthethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread.
Adam, Unfortunately, if I remove him it would just just further demonstrate intolerance to others ideas and opinions. Perhaps you should email him directly with your concerns or questions.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Adam Schwartz rideyourbicycle@gmail.com wrote:
Motion to remove this guy and his highly disturbing and unproductive rant from the listserve. Do we have a moderator?
Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com wrote:
last week I was at Costco buying a case of biscuits and I saw this lady is an air force flight suit. I couldn't help but ask, "when did the start letting women fly?" now I'm noticing women doing all sorts of stuff. I even saw a woman driving a public transit bus. this to me seems dangerous. they won't breast feed and and now we have children without immunity all over with swine flu and I can't even go to walmart for fear of all this sickness. now they want to be in charge of all kinds of things and governement and the economy and recycling and even driving the garbage truck. where does it end? how am I to embrace my freedom? this girl came to our ride once and all she could talk about was how men have affairs nothing more than high school education. this bothers me. then some wild yap about jail and court and lawyers and such: Who do you think I am -- some kind of moneybag? Here I am trying to sell my short story trilogy, and you people hound me at every turn -- howling and moaning about some sexist bike shops. What kind of rotten business are you in -- that you have to hound people all over the country?
Everybody knows that the bicycle is nothing more that a money laundering scheme, a shady, underground, organization that pollutes the very nature of what we are about: "rebelling against the man" Cycling is a lifestyle choice.
What the hell are you tyring to do, anyway? Don't you realize that I can't work with all the war coming on us? This atomic fallout is God's WRATH! With the end of the world right on top of us, I can't afford to work, let alone ride a bicycle or race cyclocross. Haven't you ever heard of serving God and Mammon? With all this sex going on and people forgetting about God, how can you hound me like this? We're taking whiskey into our bodies all the time and drink God's BLOOD! I can't hold a job -- I get worried all the time and feel half crazy ... what are you doing with all this money? I don't want your damn money . . . we all have a home in Heaven . . .what's all the trouble?
You don't understand the strain I'm under: I'm not the same man I was a year ago. Worrying about my work and money and fitness and jobs all at the same time is driving me crazy! I have to get my work published! Why don't you talk to some of these publishers I know and get me an advance so I can write a novel? Then I'll have money and I will be able to race every weekend. Then I'll have money . . .then I'll have it . . . I won't get these threats! I got a disease of some kind over in New Orleans and this doctor says I'll be fine, but I worry. Everybody thinks it's funny, but I have to get a job. I might be the assistant religion editor at the Gainsville Sun pretty soon. . . ''I'm going over there next week to see about a job. I had a car and somebody took it in St. Louis. Oh, God, whats happening all the time? Everybody wants to steal and drink and sex and take every body's money away from people who don't even sell anything and there's crazy atomic fallout everywhere and war coming on. The whole world is going crazy and I don't even have a job. You've got to stop threatening me! I'm not well -- I have a blister on my leg and that damn disease is all over my stomach. I can't even think what I want to say anymore . . . this worry is driving me crazy.
I tired to work in New Orleans and they made me quit. If I get this thing in Gainesville I'll be a religion editor and publish my own book in the paper. After that I'll have a job.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Boson Au instructions@gmail.com wrote:
Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can offer cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that only your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in the window it's all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering about cake.
also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake party.
it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that they are intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while maybe the majority of them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only one and the indifference of others to reinforce this.)
I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it; the only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are interested in bikes and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there to get a bike to ride around town in they've already signed up for it.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but I may not have stated my question clearly originally.
Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed. You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.
Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege? There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class, gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are. How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?
Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do enough regularly to address the things I could. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT me saying "enough with this accommodating already!" Just trying to figure out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who just don't want cake.
Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
Thethinktank mailing list Thethinktank@bikecollectives.org To unsubscribe, send a blank email to TheThinkTank-leave@bikecollectives.org To manage your subscription, plase visit:
http://lists.bikecollectives.org/listinfo.cgi/thethinktank-bikecollectives.o...
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Since I'm sitting on stage @ work in Hollywood(on the comedy TV show
'community'), I thought it was a joke post. But sure enough, I find it
just not funny, to me or probably anyone else on this list. Now the
digression part:
When I worked on 'Arrested Development', I found THAT to be very funny.
Still, Chedder Cheese(Chevy Chase), makes me laugh every day w/ his
snappy one liners!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 29, 2009, at 12:20, winter.snowy.rose@gmail.com wrote:
What about flagging him so that if this happens say, four times,
then he gets cut?From the sounds of it he is quite stressed indeed...
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
-----Original Message----- From: Ted Striker chupacabras@gmail.com Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:09:49 To: The Think Tankthethinktank@bikecollectives.org Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only
projectsthread.Adam, Unfortunately, if I remove him it would just just further demonstrate intolerance to others ideas and opinions. Perhaps you should email him directly with your concerns or questions.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Adam Schwartz rideyourbicycle@gmail.com wrote:
Motion to remove this guy and his highly disturbing and
unproductive rant from the listserve. Do we have a moderator?Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Michael Wolfe gzuphoesdown@gmail.com
wrote:last week I was at Costco buying a case of biscuits and I saw this
lady is an air force flight suit. I couldn't help but ask, "when did the
start letting women fly?" now I'm noticing women doing all sorts of
stuff. I even saw a woman driving a public transit bus. this to me seems
dangerous. they won't breast feed and and now we have children without immunity all
over with swine flu and I can't even go to walmart for fear of all this
sickness. now they want to be in charge of all kinds of things and
governement and the economy and recycling and even driving the garbage truck. where
does it end? how am I to embrace my freedom? this girl came to our ride once
and all she could talk about was how men have affairs nothing more than high
school education. this bothers me. then some wild yap about jail and court
and lawyers and such: Who do you think I am -- some kind of moneybag?
Here I am trying to sell my short story trilogy, and you people hound me
at every turn -- howling and moaning about some sexist bike shops. What
kind of rotten business are you in -- that you have to hound people all
over the country?Everybody knows that the bicycle is nothing more that a money
laundering scheme, a shady, underground, organization that pollutes the very
nature of what we are about: "rebelling against the man" Cycling is a
lifestyle choice.What the hell are you tyring to do, anyway? Don't you realize that
I can't work with all the war coming on us? This atomic fallout is God's
WRATH! With the end of the world right on top of us, I can't afford to
work, let alone ride a bicycle or race cyclocross. Haven't you ever heard of
serving God and Mammon? With all this sex going on and people forgetting
about God, how can you hound me like this? We're taking whiskey into our
bodies all the time and drink God's BLOOD! I can't hold a job -- I get
worried all the time and feel half crazy ... what are you doing with all this
money? I don't want your damn money . . . we all have a home in
Heaven . . .what's all the trouble?You don't understand the strain I'm under: I'm not the same man I
was a year ago. Worrying about my work and money and fitness and jobs
all at the same time is driving me crazy! I have to get my work published!
Why don't you talk to some of these publishers I know and get me an advance
so I can write a novel? Then I'll have money and I will be able to race every weekend. Then I'll have money . . .then I'll have it . . . I won't
get these threats! I got a disease of some kind over in New Orleans
and this doctor says I'll be fine, but I worry. Everybody thinks it's
funny, but I have to get a job. I might be the assistant religion editor at the Gainsville Sun pretty soon. . . ''I'm going over there next week
to see about a job. I had a car and somebody took it in St. Louis. Oh,
God, whats happening all the time? Everybody wants to steal and drink and sex
and take every body's money away from people who don't even sell anything
and there's crazy atomic fallout everywhere and war coming on. The whole
world is going crazy and I don't even have a job. You've got to stop
threatening me! I'm not well -- I have a blister on my leg and that damn
disease is all over my stomach. I can't even think what I want to say
anymore . . . this worry is driving me crazy.I tired to work in New Orleans and they made me quit. If I get
this thing in Gainesville I'll be a religion editor and publish my own book in
the paper. After that I'll have a job.On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Boson Au instructions@gmail.com
wrote:Some of the time it doesn't even get to the part where you can
offer cake; I heard about your cake party and erroneously assumed that only
your kind are invited to have cake (because when I peeked in the window it's
all your kind). I then back off, secretly wondering about cake.also, it is apparent that when I went to the party it was a cake
party.it's a weird cycle. I've been told MANY times that people are
sometimes intimidated by our shop. A lot of women told me that they are
intimidated by the sheer amount of guys there (and while maybe the majority of
them aren't 'sexist bastards' it takes only one and the indifference of
others to reinforce this.)I don't think advertising gender nights/ talking about trying to
level the playing field at the shop is being pushy. Think about it; the
only types of people who would step foot in are ones who are interested in bikes
and 'bike culture.' Even if they're just there to get a bike to ride around
town in they've already signed up for it.On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:48 AM, veganboyjosh@gmail.com wrote:
Not to detract from the things offered already, as a general
discussion about how to end sexism and all the other 'isms is important, but
I may not have stated my question clearly originally.Say your'e at a party, and there's cake. The cake gets cut and distributed. You're taking your sweet time eating your piece of
cake. I get to the party late, after the cake has been cut and distributed.
You still have some cake left on your plate. How much energy is appropriate for you to put into making sure I
get some cake also? As it turns out, I'm just not interested in the
cake you're offering. I have no problems with you having some and me not. You
offer to split your cake with me. You offer to cut the cake and let me
choose which half to have myself. Seriously, I'm not interested in the cake. It has nothing to do
with you or your cake. It's about not wanting cake.Does this analogy have a place in a discussion about privilege?
There are going to be some people at all levels of privilege, class,
gender, etc, who just aren't interested in bicycles or community bike shops, no
matter how accessible, open, oppression free, safe space providing they are.
How do we know we've done enough to accommodate the community, and when
we're being pushy by expecting to have someone of every dynamic in the shop?Again, I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as the dickhead white male...and I would say that I personally have not and do not do
enough regularly to address the things I could. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT
me saying "enough with this accommodating already!" Just trying to figure
out where the line is between being fair and offering what I/we have to
someone who doesn't and being pushy with our interests towards people who
just don't want cake.Hope that make sense.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Love for each and every one of you reading this.
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Why did you put the word "Female Mechanic" in the middle of my words. I meant all mechanics, not just xx are less organized, which makes them slower and less thorough. You are correct the is I am not automatically a better mechanic than women and men. I have 27 year experience that is what makes me more organized, efficient, faster, than most mechanics. I have taught classes for year and played mechanic speed games for many years too. The Games make you faster, putting your tools away every time you touch one makes you faster, As long as you wish to jump to conclusions that my word are against women only, you are showing that you are the sexist bastard you accuse others of being. I have worked hard for my skills and I in courage you to work just as hard to challenge your own skill to become better and better throughout your career.
Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.
On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue -- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.
This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor
what he's
hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to
challenge
me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No
matter
what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me
down the
wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe
he'll
even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused
him to
come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further,
he will
blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his
negative
stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No.
He set me
up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any
woman
sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither
me nor my
chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out
that xx
shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly as a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not call them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique. ( all of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy mechanic. I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave them. I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I do to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment, and toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots of bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I never hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive ones either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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Sarah, I agree with you and would add there is also a view from some customers that mechanics are all elitist. I try to break that barrier by holding classes to the public at low cost. I want them to feel free to ask questions, to learn how to do adjustments, and learn what mechanics can do for them. I try to become an approachable person instead of an unaproacable wrench. In my shop I try to make the atmosphere professional, I do not allow slang terms like: shock is blown, chain stretch, Dude, or other Cool terms. The more we focus on education for personal the more comfortable they seem to be to act professional to customers and other staff.
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah McCullough smcc@ucdavis.edu To: The Think Tank thethinktank@bikecollectives.org Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread.
I think the role of sexism in our culture in general, and within bike repair specifically is very tricky. It is much less tangible--laws have been changed, policies alter, spaces become ostensibly more "open." So with all these institutional barriers removed, why aren't there more women in the shop, and why do I as a woman still feel a little icky sometimes and that things still aren't quite right? I believe it is because to make a traditionally male-dominated space or field more gender-inclusive requires more than just removing barriers; it also require changing the culture. This means that to really fight sexism at its root we can't just open the doors to all, we also have to change how things run, what gets said, the everyday little stuff that is not overtly discriminatory but might still contribute to making a space male-dominated (and by the way the same would go for a female-dominated space, though this gets talked about much less and is a discussion for a different listserv). The gender-inclusive shop can't just be the old shop plus women; it requires changing the way things get done, and letting those new to the space make it theirs too.
Just read Josh's cake analogy, and I like it. A few questions: Why don't you like cake? Did you have a previous bad experience with cake? Is cake considered tacky or trashy in the circles you grew up in? Maybe you've never had cake before and you're afraid you'll make a cake faux-pas? Do you prefer cupcakes, or pie? Do you have an ethical issue with this cake? My point is, there is a whole set of cultural and personal questions behind cake preference, or to drop the analogy, affinity for riding and fixing bikes. Obviously, we cannot change the world tomorrow nor is is practical to address each and every person's idiosyncracies. But, we can ask ourselves what about the specific space, or the general politics and culture of bikes more broadly, makes it more appealing to some demographics than others?
My point is that if we really and truly want to be more inclusive, it is going to require being open to change. Listen well to those new to your organization, particularly if they do come from a different site of privilege. Think about different learning styles, languages and speech patterns, body language, body types, etc. and notice what types the shop space favors (because inevitably something is being favored). If you are a person with privilege, realize that making the space more comfortable for others will probably mean making it a tiny bit more uncomfortable for you, from the outset. But the great opportunity here is that everyone will learn. It is not about accommodation, but something more radical, and isn't that sorta what this is about--not just bikes, but also a protest to the dictatorial nature of a consumerist-driven society? This might look like a leap, but it's all related to me.
I could get more specific, but this is way long and if you are still reading, thanks for listening and email me if you want to talk more.
Sarah Davis Bike Collective
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:56 AM, winter.snowy.rose@gmail.com wrote:
I think that this is very much a multi-faceted issue. So I will only present some of them.
There can be an open-mindedness in adult men about tools that isn't always present in adult women. For instance, give a man a new tool and he (perhaps from tinkering with daddy as a child) will think that he knows what to do with it. In my experience this can result in broken tools, hurt bike parts, or hurt body parts. Give that same new tool to a woman. She may be intimidated by it, not knowing what it does or how it can hurt her. Having seen other people pick it up and seemingly having an innate knowledge about it (and maybe hurting something) makes the process of familiarization that much more challenging and time-consuming. She isn't likely to come back if she was scared or even uncomfortable.
Perhaps because of this reputation for unfamiliarity, work done can be second-guessed. Personally, there is no response that I've found to resolve this issue. You'd be arguing with an ideologue. An extension of that is having female instruction second-guessed. That cannot be tolerated. It doesn't allow for the learner to learn.
The final case of undermining that I've been exposed to (and, thankfully, not around bikes!) is men who refuse to tell me the information that I need to get a task done. A bike-related example, thankfully hypothetical: A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrong with it, nor what he's hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He's doing this to challenge me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he's thinking of. No matter what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he may lead me down the wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fix those. Maybe he'll even tell me that they're the only problem. But what originally caused him to come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaks further, he will blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. This reinforces his negative stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it my fault? No. He set me up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do it to any woman sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problem is neither me nor my chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But word will get out that xx shop has a bad mechanic just the same.
Our society has changed very dramatically in the past fifty years. It amazes me that attitudes have changed as much as they have. That's mere generations of parents passing down old societal predjudices. Of course we have more to do, hence these discussions. So I hope I have helped you with what you're looking for.
Ride safe Chloé
------Original Message------ From: Angel York Sender: thethinktank-bounces@bikecollectives.org To: The Think Tank ReplyTo: The Think Tank Subject: Re: [TheThinkTank] Digression from the non-male only projectsthread. Sent: 29 Oct 2009 03:48
It seems to me that this discussion is sufficiently on-topic (that is, relates to community bike shops) to keep as a part of this listserv. I, for one, appreciate this conversation. Angel On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Mark Rehder mark@drumbent.com wrote: What would be interesting is to find some cycling stats based on gender - how many women ride bikes compared to men? How many do so for commuting or casual riding, and also as a competitive sport (pro or amateur)? Here in Ottawa I would give a very rough estimate of a 3-1 ratio on the street. But that does not seem to translate into the industry. Of the shops around here, the ones that have women even just doing sales tend to the larger "sports" stores, and there's only one shop I'm aware of that actually had a woman wrench (McCrank's in the Glebe, where I used to work part-time). And it's a bike-only shop. Is it the old thing of women still not being socialized to do mechanical things? As I was growing up I thought feminism would finally help push all this gender-related crap aside, but we all know it has not. But how deep is the mind-set? I need to read up on my gender studies to see if little girls really do prefer dolls and little boys prefer trucks. What has been heartening is how many younger women are showing an interest in fixing their own bikes. We don't get too many women over 35 coming in, but lots in the 18-35 group. We've had a few with some experience say they'd like to be come a Head Mechanic, but unfortunately none have so far followed through. One of our current Shop Assistants did say last summer that she plans to become our first female HM, but then her new job seems to have kept her away from the shop, so we're no closer to even that modest goal. Women have told us they appreciate seeing other women in the shop, especially as staff, answering questions and selling bikes. While we are gender lopsided in terms of mechanics, we're at least doing better in terms of committed volunteer staff. But it is certainly not representati
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I believe we were discussing sexism. You seem to be discussing what a good mechanic is. If you feel so passionately, why didn't you start a new thread? You are either A) off-topic or B) sexist.
Okay, you have "27 year experience." What makes you assume that you're talking to a bunch of little girls? How old am I? It's obvious that a good mechanic is thorough, fast, and organized. Everyone here theoretically loves bicycles and strives daily for these ideals. Why do you think these little girls need you to tell them what a good mechanic is? I know I pranced into the industry on my dainty high heels and had everything handed to me on a pink platter, but still. I thought a good mechanic was one that didn't muss her makeup! You mean I have to work as hard as a man?! I'm outta here!
What organization are you involved in?
And please keep your discussion on this list. If you send any more emails to my personal address I will post them here for you.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 21:09 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
Why did you put the word "Female Mechanic" in the middle of my words. I meant all mechanics, not just xx are less organized, which makes them slower and less thorough. You are correct the is I am not automatically a better mechanic than women and men. I have 27 year experience that is what makes me more organized, efficient, faster, than most mechanics. I have taught classes for year and played mechanic speed games for many years too. The Games make you faster, putting your tools away every time you touch one makes you faster, As long as you wish to jump to conclusions that my word are against women only, you are showing that you are the sexist bastard you accuse others of being. I have worked hard for my skills and I in courage you to work just as hard to challenge your own skill to become better and better throughout your career.
Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.
On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue -- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.
This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrongwith it, nor what he's
hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He'sdoing this to challenge
me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he'sthinking of. No matter
what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he maylead me down the
wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fixthose. Maybe he'll
even tell me that they're the only problem. But whatoriginally caused him to
come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaksfurther, he will
blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. Thisreinforces his negative
stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it myfault? No. He set me
up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do itto any woman
sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problemis neither me nor my
chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But wordwill get out that xx
shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly
as
a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not
call
them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique.
( all
of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy
mechanic.
I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave
them.
I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I
do
to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment,
and
toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots
of
bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I
never
hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive
ones
either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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I just wanna put this out, but what where all ta;ling about, besides Wallmart, gods blood and or flying suits...will be talked in depth at teh Canadian Bike bike, no other issue will take more potency in Toronto that the issue of women in the community. Email threads tend to lose tehri threads and get tangled and thus If we can state points of hyper tension that would help all of us discuses these issues in person next year?
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Bike City bikecityrecyclery@gmail.comwrote:
I believe we were discussing sexism. You seem to be discussing what a good mechanic is. If you feel so passionately, why didn't you start a new thread? You are either A) off-topic or B) sexist.
Okay, you have "27 year experience." What makes you assume that you're talking to a bunch of little girls? How old am I? It's obvious that a good mechanic is thorough, fast, and organized. Everyone here theoretically loves bicycles and strives daily for these ideals. Why do you think these little girls need you to tell them what a good mechanic is? I know I pranced into the industry on my dainty high heels and had everything handed to me on a pink platter, but still. I thought a good mechanic was one that didn't muss her makeup! You mean I have to work as hard as a man?! I'm outta here!
What organization are you involved in?
And please keep your discussion on this list. If you send any more emails to my personal address I will post them here for you.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 21:09 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
Why did you put the word "Female Mechanic" in the middle of my words. I meant all mechanics, not just xx are less organized, which makes them slower and less thorough. You are correct the is I am not automatically a better mechanic than women and men. I have 27 year experience that is what makes me more organized, efficient, faster, than most mechanics. I have taught classes for year and played mechanic speed games for many years too. The Games make you faster, putting your tools away every time you touch one makes you faster, As long as you wish to jump to conclusions that my word are against women only, you are showing that you are the sexist bastard you accuse others of being. I have worked hard for my skills and I in courage you to work just as hard to challenge your own skill to become better and better throughout your career.
Christopher,
Why are you assuming that you are more "efficient, thorough, and Fast" than a female mechanic? You are NOT automatically a better mechanic than a woman. My shop does not do drop-off repairs for customers, and I believe the situation in question involves trying to teach males.
On the flip side, the bikes I build or restore are far more thorough than your own work that you are describing. I have had men tell me that this is because "I'm just better at cleaning and polishing". If I wield metal polish, wax, and the whole nine yards, it's a feminine virtue -- if a male does the same, it's simply good work.
This is the essence of your male privilege -- believing that where you've gotten in life and everything you do is unaffected by any privilege.
andrea
On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 10:34 -0400, bovineoaks@aol.com wrote:
A man needs his bike fixed. He will not say what's wrongwith it, nor what he's
hearing or feeling. Only that it's broken. Fix it. He'sdoing this to challenge
me. No matter what I find, it's not the "broken" he'sthinking of. No matter
what I fix, it isn't good enough. In an extreme case, he maylead me down the
wrong path (ie I find that his brakes are sub-par and fixthose. Maybe he'll
even tell me that they're the only problem. But whatoriginally caused him to
come in is a loose headset). If I miss something that breaksfurther, he will
blame not only me doing my job, but my gender. Thisreinforces his negative
stereotype of women in non-traditional roles. But is it myfault? No. He set me
up to fail by not telling me the problem. And he would do itto any woman
sharing my occupation. Again, an ideologue and the problemis neither me nor my
chest. It's him setting me up to be the problem. But wordwill get out that xx
shop has a bad mechanic just the same.If you Have an REI near by ask for all of the check off list they have for Basic tunes, to Overhauls. I have found when I work from a list and add to the list that I do not miss little details of a repair. If every guy did this to you I would call it sexism. Sadly
as
a guy in a bike shop I meet men like this all the time, We do not
call
them sexist bastards, we just call them Dicks. Step back and look at the issue, Was your work at fault, if so upgrade your technique.
( all
of us can learn more) Is the customer way too picky. Then he is a dick, if he says that the work is bad because you are female then he is a dick and a sexist bastard. Refer him to a really crapy
mechanic.
I meet anal picky customers all the time. I am older, I do not take guff form them. I tell them what they asked for, and what I gave
them.
I always give more than they ask for.
Example of what I do on a brake job:
I clean every bike from head to tail, I clean each rim in the sink with Dawn and a Scotch bright green sponge to remove metal oxide and oil , I sand each brake pad to remove the metal oxide. I round, dish, tension, and true the wheels. This is all the extra set up I
do
to prepare brakes. Then I do all the normal brake pad alignment,
and
toe. Check cables/ housing, caliper / lever mount bolts. Customers never come back to me with squeeky brakes when I am done. Thus lots
of
bad feelings are avoided and lots of rework is avoided. Sadly I
never
hear any good coments from customers, But I do not hear negitive
ones
either.
I can do all this because I practice being efficent, thorough, and Fast. As you become more experienced challenge yourself to do things better with more detail and faster. Never compromise safety. The safety of your hands or your customers life.
Christopher
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participants (12)
-
Adam Schwartz -
Bike City -
Boson Au -
bovineoaks＠aol.com -
Geoffrey B -
Gern Trowbridge -
Michael Wolfe -
noah -
Sarah McCullough -
Ted Striker -
veganboyjosh＠gmail.com -
winter.snowy.rose＠gmail.com